[Patu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth Low level detail? I never realized Maynard very, very softly breathes "you" at near 1:08 of 'Wings For Marie (PT.1)'. Now heard, I can hear it through the more modest wires but it took the Nordosts to reveal it as having been there.

You don't need Nordost cables to hear that.

 

[eyeteeth]

I mustn't have been paying attention before. I thought I was....

 

[bhd812]

I have the older ver of the Red dawn speaker cable here now on demo. The dealer told me the Hemidall's are worth there own and much better. comparsion between the Red D speaker to the newer three ?


If i were you I wouldnt know where to start with all those cables man, thats really crazy.

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhd812 I have the older ver of the Red dawn speaker cable here now on demo. The dealer told me the Hemidall's are worth there own and much better. comparsion between the Red D speaker to the newer three ? If i were you I wouldnt know where to start with all those cables man, thats really crazy.

Start at the bottom and work up, then work your way back down....to reality.

Unfortunately my listening was fairly rush and my writing was hasty. The case will be returned shortly. I barely bothered with the Blue Heaven/Red Dawn cables as I owned both in the past and parted with them soon after. I don't know why they are still on offer from Nordost now. They're clearly hasbeens. New full list price has a $300 gap between the Red Dawn and Baldur and I'd stretch for it. Or if you're like me go for used, although that'd be tougher to find given how new the Norse line is. My Frey enroute was taken for a Perry Como spin weekly by a little old lady from Pasadena and was had for $500.

It's too bad I can't spend more time with the cables as I only have a rudementary view.

More later.

 

[J-Pak]

Thanks for the listening impressions eyeteeth, we have similar tastes in music so what you described really helped. I'm going to see if I can get a few Nordst ICs from a hifi dealer in the middle of the summer to test with my STAX system. I suspect the differences will be smaller than with a good speaker system....but we'll see the SR-404 is supposed to be very revealing.

 

[Oliver :)]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick82 Where did you find a suitcase like this?

Wherever, I sure hope he pulled a Vincent Vega opening it.

 

[yo2tup2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth Swapping between the usual suspects of excellent RCA cables Oritek, PSAudio, Grover and the Heimdall, Frey and there's not much of a contest. The Nordosts are simply in another class. Linear and quiet, finer, a much greater disappearing act. The others sounded coarse and unproportional in comparison.

that's a bit depressing!

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Pak Thanks for the listening impressions eyeteeth,

Thanks J-Pak. But as you'll see I'm as flawed and unsure as the next guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Wherever, I sure hope he pulled a Vincent Vega opening it.

Yeah that is a cool image.

Video of what was in the suitcase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yo2tup2 that's a bit depressing!

Well it isn't so bad and it isn't so very clear right now either, and I'll explain that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth It's too bad I can't spend more time with the cables as I only have a rudementary view.

I like it best to be in possession of an item for months in which to get to know it. The Nordosts are fun to have and a good measure towards something which I wanted which was to hear the Valhalla. In comparing cables in the past I lamented that I had no experience with that 800 pound gorilla that get mentioned in every pro cable review from the modestly priced yet ambitious to those that cost twice what the Valhalla does. That gorilla, the Valhalla is THE benchmark. How much better was it than what I was trying? ten times better or ten percent better? I didn't care about having the best or anything. I was just curious because of all the words that have been written generally in the gladiatorial arena of the cable world.

I thought I had a much better measure of things when after hearing the Frey I pulled out my issue #42 of HIFI+ and read again the Frey review by Roy Gregory. Roy seems to mention the Valhalla in every review he does no matter what is being reviewed. He's an unabashed fan that's for certain.

Two most complimentary comments regarding the Frey:

"The astonishing inner textures and subtle shadings of the Valhalla might be beyond the junior cable, but it makes up for it with superior immediacy and front-of-stage clarity. The Frey displays more sheer presence and greater impact than the Valhalla. Like I said, the differences are subtle, but it's enough to tilt the cheaper cable's balance of virtues away from the low-level subtlety of Valhalla and towards sheer life and musical enthusiasm."

"It stands as a stunning endorsement of mono-filament technology. Nordost's range used to have something of a top heavy "Valhalla - then everything else" look to it. With the introduction of mono-filament technology right down to the bottom rung of the serious hi-fi ladder, all that has changed. Now everyone can enjoy the benefits and appreciate what all the fuss has been about. So, how close does Frey get to Valhalla? Close enough to change updating my own leads to NextGen status from a luxury into a matter of considerable urgency!"

This is all lovely and gave me an idea of where things are at, at the top of the cable world. A feeling of completion. I was enjoying the Frey immensely last night before bed and when I came home today, with a mind to give the speaker cables another shot, listened to the Frey some more.
And then I looked at the source selection knob of my amp and it wasn't where it was supposed to be!
It was set to AV not Tuner.
I'd been listening last night and this afternoon not to the Frey but to the Oritek X2!

I leapt into switcheroo mode!

The most immediate difference was in tone, the X2 was darker. More back and forths and the two cables revealed their differences which were as I described before, generally an earthiness versus an ethereality. But the difference, as a music lover, wasn't of straight out superiority anymore. Now it was a matter of taste. From a strict technological/HIFI point of view the Frey was superior as it's tricks were slightly more dazzling. But more enjoyable? I'm not so sure. This reminded me of the Oritek and Grover cables struggle of the past where it was determined (I think?) in the end that personal taste was the final arbiter of superiority. Here now the Frey is to the Oritek what it was to the Grover and possible technological and HIFI prowess doesn't necessarily translate into more musical enjoyment.

A number of questions arrive such as individual recordings: the Scissor Sisters is better through the Oritek than the Frey due to the tone of the energetic CD. Which cable is closer to neutral? How far off neutral is that CD? Sometimes I'm loving a CD and when a much better sounding one follows I realize how poor the previous one really was, but it sounded great at the time. How is my source? The criticisms of the DAC1 and it's unrelentingness for some are very well known but haven't phased me in the past. Would a lush Accuphase CD player, for example, have the Frey the perfect match? Sometime I've come home and absolutely everything sounds terrible, it's just one of those days. Nothing is right. I hear hifi, I hear fake. Is this just one of those days? Will tomorrow sound like yesterday?

System matching is a well known basic understanding in audio circles but sometimes it unexpectedly sneaks up and kicks your butt.

I'm out of writing time, and also want to torture myself with the speaker cables for their last night here so off I go.

I recall as the guy handed me the Nordost case he said "Have fun"...........

 

[eyeteeth]

I didn't enjoy the Frey interconnect, Frey speaker cable combination very much at all. It is an astounding listen in terms of resolution and holography but it's too light and very surreal. There's a real sense of a lack of weight and gravity without being able to really tell if it is really brighter with a lack of bass. Music through helium. The last thing I played through both speaker cables was a standard that I know well, Cash's American IV. The combination of Frey interconnect and Statement speaker cable was a dropping of altitude and return to Earth. I described climbing down the range as "Flatter not in a linear sense but in a less holographic sense. More papery, more mundane, more ordinary, less life." and it is true but not nearly as objectionable. Most definitely "more mundane, more ordinary" but I disagree now with "less life". A return to normality is a comfortable thing in life.

Now I see the ball and chain as a welcome image of balance, one foot fixed on the ground.

 

[eyeteeth]

Just a post early morning subway ride thought on cables generally. How there can be such described differences between two and yet one can be mistaken for the other. I'm reminded of when I moved into a new neighbourhood when I was ten years old and encountered a set of identical twin brothers. (I entered into a group of a dozen friends for the next ten years that included them. There is still some contact between a few of us). These twin brothers were completely indistinguishable from each other for a time in the beginning but with familiarity I could tell who was who instantly from a hundred yards or more.

Just a thought.

 

[Alwayswantmore]

Thank you for sharing your experience. Poking around on Audiogon I found a spkr cable from Transparent that retailed for $30K. That's as much as a Camery Hybrid!

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alwayswantmore Thank you for sharing your experience. Poking around on Audiogon I found a spkr cable from Transparent that retailed for $30K. That's as much as a Camery Hybrid!

Thanks Alwayswantmore.
Are you saying that the $30K cables have put the smack down on your username?

Yeah, that's completely insane.
Pricing in audio and especially with cables is a whole other can of worms.

 

[Alwayswantmore]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth Thanks Alwayswantmore. Are you saying that the $30K cables have put the smack down on your username? Yeah, that's completely insane. Pricing in audio and especially with cables is a whole other can of worms.

You'ld need to be Bill Gates to afford the top of the line across the board. (I consider myself to have the entry-level to high-end gear.)

I sold high-end audio all through college. Actually owned about $6K worth of gear when I graduated (and that was 1979 dollars!). But back then all I used was lamp zip cord and generic ICs.

Then about 10 years ago I moved up to mid-priced AudioQuest ICs / bi-wire speaker cables. A couple of years later, I moved up to a used Transparent Super balanced cable (big improvements from the same components – but some of that may be attributable to balanced drive).

Over the past year I had a chance to try both Moon BDv2 and Zu Mobius balanced cables for HD 650s (again, big differences in sound). Now Patrick82 is loaning me a hunk of Nordost Valkyrja to try with my K1000s.

Lesson learned: I now look at cables as a component in the audio chain, as opposed to an accessory.

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alwayswantmore Over the past year I had a chance to try both Moon BDv2 and Zu Mobius balanced cables for HD 650s (again, big differences in sound). Now Patrick82 is loaning me a hunk of Nordost Valkyrja to try with my K1000s.

Supposedly the Nordost guy Lars has been doing demonstrations of how the bottom rung and least priced Baldur is superior to the Valkyrja. Don't know if it is myself but I hope so. Anything to up the performance and lower the silly prices. I think the 500 I've let go is a little nuts but only half as nuts as new list price, and I might sell it at no loss after a full assessment. If the source front wasn't so uncertain right now with Blu-Ray and HD-DVD taking a shot at becoming the new standard for digital playback, I'd put the 500 towards a kickass disc spinner. Invest in a CD only player or a serious turntable today? I'm waiting a year to see what happens.

Quote:

I sold high-end audio all through college. Actually owned about $6K worth of gear when I graduated (and that was 1979 dollars!). But back then all I used was lamp zip cord and generic ICs.

That's pretty cool. All those great sounding recordings of the 50's, 60's, 70's were recorded with real basic cable so yeah it's no crime to be very basic in playback. Or at least that how I see it. You're getting the fundamental truth. Member Snake offered the opinion in a nearby thread recently of cables "gilding the lily". I have to agree.

It's about suspending disbelief. When it works while reading you're not aware of turning pages, with music you forget the gear. To get freaky poetic, if the two channels like the polar icecaps melt a little, the water need only rise a bit for a devastating event.

Quote:

Lesson learned: I now look at cables as a component in the audio chain, as opposed to an accessory.

I'm not sure I go as far as component. It depends. If a rig is wired throughout with a particularly affective brand, maybe. And BTW that's how a cable's signature should be witnessed blind or viewed IMHO, wire the whole rig.
I guess for me cables are like trying different wheels on a race car.

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth Supposedly the Nordost guy Lars has been doing demonstrations of how the bottom rung and least priced Baldur is superior to the Valkyrja. Don't know if it is myself but I hope so. Anything to up the performance and lower the silly prices.

Yes, they messed up the Valkyrja interconnect and discontinued it, Frey is cheaper and replaces it. The speaker cable was better than the interconnect, they made an "incomplete" version of the Valhalla by using the same conductor size and reducing the amount of conductors by 30%. With the Frey they reduced the size of each conductor (from 22 to 24 awg) as well so it became more like a smaller version of Valhalla instead of an incomplete version. It appears that Frey measures as good as Valkyrja but is still the better cable for most loudspeakers, finding the correct conductor size and amount is the most difficult and important part! The only other difference is that Frey has 99.9999% OFC while Valkyrja (and Valhalla) has 99.999999% OFC.

It looks like the interconnects are identical in the Norse line except they use different amount of 26awg conductors. Frey = 8, Heimdall = 4, Baldur = 2. The better cable also has better plugs.

5 of 6 cables in the Norse line uses “Micro Mono-Filament” technology. The Baldur speaker cable doesn't. All 3 speaker cables use 24awg conductor size but a different amount per cable. Frey = 28, Heimdall = 24, Baldur = 26.

But other than this, are all those conductors really equal or is there something else that is different? When I look at my power cords the Valhalla has the 'Dual Micro Mono-Filament' threads spaced closer together than the single 'Micro Mono-Filament' Vishnu. It looks like the Vishnu has more teflon contacting the conductor which results in the thin and lifeless sound I am hearing from it (using more conductors didn't help). RFI/EMI reduction is also less effective with the threads further apart (background didn't sound as black as Valhalla). But then again, it's the new 'Dual Micro Mono-Filament' that only exists with the power cord, I wish they made it for the interconnect and speaker cable as well! I would be first in line to buy the Valhalla second edition if something like that ever comes!

They have started using 99.9999% OFC instead of 99.999999% OFC which cut down production costs pretty good. It's not as important as Micro Mono-Filament design is. Everyone should get a cable that has this design, it sounds amazing, the music seems to float without any grain.

The good news with the Frey speaker cable is that it would probably be THE cable for headphones, it has 4x7 conductors per cable which is the best design IMO, because you can use 1 conductor for each signal while separating each from another with the unused conductors in the middle (one pair gives eight 7 conductor headphone cables).
The 22awg Valkyrja was just enough for K1000 to bring out the bass without sacrificing the highs (little thinner and it wouldn't have been enough). Which means that the thinner 24awg Frey would be good enough (optimal?) to bring out the bass with smaller drivers like K701 or K501. Retail of Frey is $2820 for a 3 meter pair. Which means that it would cost $352.5 for each headphone cable. Group buy anyone?

Ask Lars if you can cut his Frey cable to pieces and try with your headphones.