[RogerWilco]

Here are some drivers that seem to be getting alot of press for sounding very good.


http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...Number=264-844

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...Number=264-842

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...Number=264-811

Great for a small bedroom or computer system.Some of there drivers are shielded--you have to just read.

They have larger drivers than the 3"--it is just my Preference for speed and detail.

 

[ooheadsoo]

I'm not for drivers that small in a full range situation, myself. It can't possibly cross low enough for woofer reinforcement without becoming some kind of 1.5 or 2 way.

Full range definitely doesn't sound inherently bad, as some have tried to claim, however. I'm listening to my own experimental implementation right now.

 

[RogerWilco]

I have played around with jordan,bandor,fostex and many other fullrange drivers.

You are right about the bass.I for 1 and not into powerfull bass ,but well defined tight bass.

The 3' driver do not go as low--maybe a cheap sub is needed for some--but it sounds better in the upper Frequencies.

My next project may be a small line array.

This is just an Alternative for people needing top quality sound on the cheap.

 

[ooheadsoo]

I'm playing with a visaton b200 8" full range driver (~$155 each.) Sounds pretty good, so far, but you have to be willing to play with it.

 

[Wodgy]

Maybe the newer Tang Bands have improved tremendously, but I was never impressed with the Tang Bands fullranges I had. Uneven frequency response, serious rolloff of the highs off-axis, etc. I'd be willing to try the newer ones again, but only with an appropriate crossover, e.g. something like this:
http://www.rjbaudio.com/Bandit/bandit.html
and recognizing its limitations as a low-cost speaker. Also check this design out:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker18.html

I think the single driver crossoverless fans are basically nuts, helped along by borderline dishonest vendors making dubious claims (Omega, Moth, Cain&Cain, etc.) and pushing a religion more than quality sound. My mind is open, but I've never seen a single driver crossoverless speaker with anything other than terrible measurements. The best I've seen is the Fostex FE166ES-R which just barely manages +/- 5dB from 250 Hz to 15 kHz on-axis, and a very fast roll-off off-axis. Most are more like the Fostex FF165, which has a -10 dB dip at 1kHz, a big peak at 7kHz, and very steep roll-off past 10kHz, on-axis. For a laugh, see Stereophile's measurements of the Moth Cicada.

 

[ooheadsoo]

Come on, Wodgy, look at the measurements of big buck speakers everywhere. Most of them measure worse than most ~$500 bookshelves. You have to admit that there is more to music reproduction than accurate frequency response. For example, these b200's I am listening to. They do have fr problems, especially because corner/wall proximity I am using (and my cardboard baffle, most likely.) However, having dealt with that temporarily with eq (I anticipate using eq with this system from start to finish,) I must say that the detail level being conveyed is on a different order than the mbow1 - or at least I am catching different details than previously. Microdynamics and macrodynamics are improved. What's wrong with them? Well, the FR is still off, but I'm not that worried because I don't have them mounted the way I plan on having them mounted, and I'm still listening in mono.

Another thing that must be considered for rising high frequency response is that it will approach flat response as you progress off axis. I certainly don't plan on listening to these speakers on axis.

Given these FR problems, there are other aspects to enjoy.

Outside of the few single driver commercial proponents, you have to admit that diyaudio's forums have a huge following of single driver lovers.

I'm going to buy a spl meter soon, or a deq2496. The FR domain is proving to be malleable.

This is funny - I'm currently reading an old (period) bio on rossini in which the author argues German vs Italian schools of music - that is, accuracy of tone vs. expressive musicality. Sound familiar?

 

[mcgsxr]

Well, I too am using a set of the Visatons, and can speak to my own experience with reconciling their FR plot against their sound.

The plot sure does not look promising, I agree - and when using one implementation, I was concerned about the apparent lack of bass, vs the treble (which would bear out the FR plot). Switching ancillary gear completely changed the sound, and it is now exactly what I am looking for.

They are a lot more expensive than the stuff initially posted, but the coherency is staggering.

In any case, for some more affordable stuff, I would advise getting an ear around the FR125 from either DIY Cable in the US, or CSS in Canada. A 4.5 incher, that will amaze you in a simple .25 foot ported box (tuned to anywhere from 50-60Hz).

I have a set of these too, and really think they are well worth the $$.

Just my take etc,

 

[RogerWilco]

Css replaced the jordan driver with the fr 125.That is saying alot.

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooheadsoo Come on, Wodgy, look at the measurements of big buck speakers everywhere. Most of them measure worse than most ~$500 bookshelves. You have to admit that there is more to music reproduction than accurate frequency response.

I agree with you, but my experience is that speakers that have serious response problems tend to get irritating in the long run. Dips aren't as bad as peaks, but even dips start to bother you after a while.

I think your plan on EQing the B200s is a good one. Like I said, I'm not that opposed to single driver speakers with an appropriate crossover to even out the response (that's effectively what you're doing with EQ).

As for decent performance off-axis, it depends on your intended usage. You listen in the sweet spot with your speakers flanking your computer monitor, so it's not that big of an issue, but I tend to use my speakers in my living room and it's really frustrating to have speakers that sound dead everywhere in the room except when you're sitting on the couch in the sweet spot because the off-axis rolloff is so steep.

The guys on DIYaudio tend to hop on to whatever bandwagon is easiest to build and requires the least engineering knowledge (e.g. filterless DACs, single driver crossoverless speakers, chip amps, etc.). That's not meant as a slam on any of those technologies, just an observation that things tend to become popular there for reasons not always connected with how good they sound. I can't think of anyone who has the skills to do crossover design but who would still prefer a single driver speaker based on its merits other than the low price.

I think it's interesting that people trash Bose for their overpriced, underperforming single driver speakers, but don't levy the same complaints about Cain&Cain, Omega, etc. High end audio is all about image. I do find it interesting though that Bose at least attempts to deal with the off-axis roll-off problem by having their little stacked cube speakers at an angle to one another.

 

[ooheadsoo]

The problem with bose is the small size of their drivers, not the fact that they are full range drivers. Omega and C&C use much larger drivers to get increased bass extension.

I have more comments to make, but am indisposed at the moment.

 

[ooheadsoo]

Oh yeah. Something I thought of while posting in a different thread is that while having a tweeter up on top will result in better dispersion in the upper octaves, xovers create their own problems. While, for instance, with my mbow1, I find the sound enjoyable from just about anywhere in my room, there is an annoying shift in the sound as you move from place to place due to lobing. Now, it's fine if you just sit in one place and don't move while listening critically (this isn't something that bugs you if you're not critically listening) then you're fine. The image also shifts from left to right dramatically as you move around. Again, if you're just listening to the music and not "audiophilic" qualities, then it's fine - but annoying if you're listening somewhat critically. I have heard it rumored that full rangers/dipoles don't suffer from this issue - at least to a lesser extent. I'll find out once I have time to rig my system up in stereo...

So far, it is doing very well in mono, sitting in a cardboard baffle.

 

[Wodgy]

You don't get lobing with a full-ranger, but the highs disappear off-axis so it's basically as bad as severe lobing; you have to sit near the sweet spot.

RJB's comments on the phenomenon are here:
http://www.rjbaudio.com/Bandit/bandit.html
"As you can see from the diagram above the response isn't too bad when you move 15 degrees off axis but when you get beyond 30 degrees the high frequencies disappear. This is due to the size of the cone because as the wavelengths get shorter than the cone diameter they begin to cancel off axis and the driver becomes very directional. This will happen with any driver of this size. A three inch driver will even suffer a lot of these problems but it will occur slightly higher in frequency due to the smaller cone. This is the main deficiency of this design because if you listen off axis the high frequencies literally disappear."

 

[ooheadsoo]

Yes, that is technically true ala physics - on paper - but I think in practice, it's not that big an issue with a good driver. Let's just be clear, I'm speaking of the b200, the only decent full range driver I have experience with, completely discounting cheap tang bands and their ilk. (The sound of those cheap drivers is so fuzzy and lacking in imaging that I can't even tell what's going on.) Of course, there is no lobing, but I don't know about the stability of imaging. I have a few thoughts regarding that top octave or two.

1. Almost no music is in that top octave or two. At best, some remnants of cymbol splash. It's not obvious stuff.

2. You can barely hear anything in that top octave, anyway.

3. Reflections from the room make up for some of the lack.

The end result is that it's not nearly as offensive as you might think. Perhaps you heard whizzer coned full rangers, which boost the top frequencies on axis but cause even greater drop off axis, possibly due to lobing induced by the whizzer, I forget the physics here. If you take a look here: http://www.visaton.de/english/artikel/art_771_2_3.html you can see that the top range dispersion of the b200 (shown up to 10khz) is actually quite good, considering. With the reference at 2000hz being -10db, it is down by 7 or 8db at 10khz. I have not seen off axis measurements, but with the 7-8db raised upper octaves on axis, it may be that the off axis performance is not bad, at all. It certainly sounds that way. In fact, I am still pulling down a wide 9 semitone dip centered around 7khz because the top end is still a bit hot in my opinion.

I am not displeased with the off axis performance of the b200, physics not withstanding.

 

[Czilla9000]

I DIYed some fullrange speakers using Jordan JX92s. I remember that Wodgy thought the specs were 'beautiful' (for the driver).

To be honest, I use these speakers in ways that they are not designed to be used: I use them as the fronts of a medium sized home theater. I am pretty sure I exceed the maximum wattage on a regular basis, but the drivers have not fried yet. The speakers are also postioned OFF-AXIS, but I still get plenty of highs. I find toeing them in helps.

 

[ooheadsoo]

I finally have 1 speaker set up in position. The baffle is still rough, I'm not willing to sink a lot of money into the project, yet.

With a little EQ, bass is dropping off around 50-60hz. My ultimate 52hz test is Patricia Barber's "She's a Lady" which has a bass note that hits squarely on 52hz or so. It's not quite there yet. I don't trust my ears for treble yet - spot checks haven't revealed anything out of the ordinary. Room modes still bug the crap out of me, don't think there's anything to be done about it.