Frustrating issues with HE400i (2016), JDS Labs Atom amp, and Schiit IEMagni (rant)
Aug 14, 2021 at 11:48 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 16

sennheiserhd485

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This is somewhat of a rant but also me genuinely needing help. For my first mid-fi headphone, I chose Hifiman HE400i (2016) because of its very low price, planar tech, and respect the line has. I went with the JDS Labs Atom stack, but that turned out bad because of the mids sounding very weak/low resolution/channel imbalance compared to unamped. I took John's recommendations to try to fix the issue, but nothing worked. I sent that all back and lost quite a bit of money from buying a new adapter, return shipping, insurance, and restocking fee. Next I bought Schiit IEMagni to use without a DAC (trying to save a little money now), and this turned out bad as well. Somehow on low/mid gain, I have to turn the volume up far higher than I had to with Atom, which doesn't make sense because Atom has much less power per channel. Using a reference bass-heavy song, Atom sounded wordlessly better in terms of impact/body and level of bass. That doesn't make sense either unless there is some problem with going 1/8" to RCA. But now I am going to lose even more money sending it back as well. This is not the end of my issues, however. I believe the headphones themselves are faulty too. Compared to Grado SR60i and Hifiman RE-400, the mids sound congested/lower resolution/lower quality when unamped. This should certainly not be considering that HE400i is a mid-fi headphone and used to cost $500. Additionally, when you switch left and right cable ends, channel imbalance is apparent. This will be more money to send back and get replaced. The entire experience from start to finish has been horrendous, and at this point, I'm ready to just go back to using unamped entry level headphones and cut my losses. Maybe there are too many variables or I don't know what I'm doing.
 
Aug 15, 2021 at 2:50 AM Post #2 of 16
Try something chinese with digital volume control
 
Aug 15, 2021 at 3:21 AM Post #3 of 16
nvm
 
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Aug 15, 2021 at 4:07 AM Post #4 of 16
This is somewhat of a rant but also me genuinely needing help. For my first mid-fi headphone, I chose Hifiman HE400i (2016) because of its very low price, planar tech, and respect the line has. I went with the JDS Labs Atom stack, but that turned out bad because of the mids sounding very weak...

The HE400i has a midrange dip.
1629010875490.png

1629010886672.png

1629010904139.png





...low resolution...




...channel imbalance compared to unamped.

Likely because the gain is too high on the amp you're using it can't get past the point of imbalance on the analogue potentiometer. Or the potentiometer is busted.


I took John's recommendations to try to fix the issue, but nothing worked. I sent that all back and lost quite a bit of money from buying a new adapter...

What new adapter?


Next I bought Schiit IEMagni to use without a DAC (trying to save a little money now), and this turned out bad as well. Somehow on low/mid gain, I have to turn the volume up far higher than I had to with Atom, which doesn't make sense because Atom has much less power per channel.

It does. The IEMagni has very low gain to be very usable for IEMs and high sensitivity headphones.

Ever played Gran Turismo or Forza? If you tune a 500hp car for top speed cruising around an oval test track (not an oval NASCAR/Indy track) you can lose to a Lotus Exige with a properly tuned transmission if you race that Exige on a 400m regulation drag strip or a track like Buttonwillow. Gain is very roughly a lot like transmission settings being more of a factor than engine output.

That said...I'm puzzled as to how an HE400i can have that problem at a 93dB/1mW sensitivity, unlike the HE400S at 98dB/1mW or HE400se at 99dB/1mW.


Using a reference bass-heavy song, Atom sounded wordlessly better in terms of impact/body and level of bass.

So would a Heed CanAmp or a Perreaux (on some headphones) or even a Burson vs the Magnis. Not as much over the Asgard.

This isn't solely a function of power in the same manner that you can feel a more violent thrust from your butt dyno when you floor it on a car with a small block 5.7L V8 than on a 9000rpm 4.2L V8 with more power. In some cases it's current delivery, in most cases it can be because one amp boosts the low end response.


That doesn't make sense either unless there is some problem with going 1/8" to RCA.

There shouldn't be a problem unless whatever is outputting through 3.5mm TRS isn't outputting a clear, clean, ~2V line output, any of which can still happen on some devices using RCA outputs.


But now I am going to lose even more money sending it back as well. This is not the end of my issues, however. I believe the headphones themselves are faulty too. Compared to Grado SR60i and Hifiman RE-400, the mids sound congested/lower resolution/lower quality when unamped.


Not the exact same scale but this is enough to illustrate that you're comparing two sets of markedly different response curves...
1629014013306.png

1629014059707.png

1629014144798.png


...where two of them are boosted at around 2000hz while the other takes a dip there.


This should certainly not be considering that HE400i is a mid-fi headphone and used to cost $500

Actually this is normal for when you go up the price range ie the intensity of variances and frequency of such variances from where 1000hz is would be reduced, whether it's having a -5dB dip at 2000hz vs a +10dB boost at 2000hz or having fewer and less tall peaks above 2000hz.

Not to mention also being much flatter all the way to 20hz vs the Grado.


Additionally, when you switch left and right cable ends, channel imbalance is apparent.

Well if it isn't then there wouldn't be an imbalance in output or response. The question is how to interpret each behavior as to guess what the problem is.

If you switch the cables at the headphone end and the imbalance does not reverse then the weaker driver is busted.

If it shifts then there's a problem with any equipment upstream of the headphones, or at least channel imbalance on the amplifier/s, which as previously discussed can be due to a gain mismatch while this is an inherent problem on analogue potentiometers, or due to a faulty pot. If it's happened on two different amps, statistically speaking both amps having a busted pot is kind of low.


This will be more money to send back and get replaced. The entire experience from start to finish has been horrendous, and at this point, I'm ready to just go back to using unamped entry level headphones and cut my losses. Maybe there are too many variables or I don't know what I'm doing.

Or you just prefer a midrange boost, so a Grado RS2 would be your best bet over any headphone and an amplifier.
 

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Aug 16, 2021 at 3:53 AM Post #7 of 16
take your hifiman to a hi-fi store. try them there on another amp.
listen with my magni 3 at 9 o`clock or higher. zero imbalance issues
 
Aug 16, 2021 at 4:45 AM Post #9 of 16
The HE400i has a midrange dip.
1629010875490.png
1629010886672.png
1629010904139.png











Likely because the gain is too high on the amp you're using it can't get past the point of imbalance on the analogue potentiometer. Or the potentiometer is busted.




What new adapter?




It does. The IEMagni has very low gain to be very usable for IEMs and high sensitivity headphones.

Ever played Gran Turismo or Forza? If you tune a 500hp car for top speed cruising around an oval test track (not an oval NASCAR/Indy track) you can lose to a Lotus Exige with a properly tuned transmission if you race that Exige on a 400m regulation drag strip or a track like Buttonwillow. Gain is very roughly a lot like transmission settings being more of a factor than engine output.

That said...I'm puzzled as to how an HE400i can have that problem at a 93dB/1mW sensitivity, unlike the HE400S at 98dB/1mW or HE400se at 99dB/1mW.




So would a Heed CanAmp or a Perreaux (on some headphones) or even a Burson vs the Magnis. Not as much over the Asgard.

This isn't solely a function of power in the same manner that you can feel a more violent thrust from your butt dyno when you floor it on a car with a small block 5.7L V8 than on a 9000rpm 4.2L V8 with more power. In some cases it's current delivery, in most cases it can be because one amp boosts the low end response.




There shouldn't be a problem unless whatever is outputting through 3.5mm TRS isn't outputting a clear, clean, ~2V line output, any of which can still happen on some devices using RCA outputs.





Not the exact same scale but this is enough to illustrate that you're comparing two sets of markedly different response curves...
1629014013306.png
1629014059707.png
1629014144798.png

...where two of them are boosted at around 2000hz while the other takes a dip there.




Actually this is normal for when you go up the price range ie the intensity of variances and frequency of such variances from where 1000hz is would be reduced, whether it's having a -5dB dip at 2000hz vs a +10dB boost at 2000hz or having fewer and less tall peaks above 2000hz.

Not to mention also being much flatter all the way to 20hz vs the Grado.




Well if it isn't then there wouldn't be an imbalance in output or response. The question is how to interpret each behavior as to guess what the problem is.

If you switch the cables at the headphone end and the imbalance does not reverse then the weaker driver is busted.

If it shifts then there's a problem with any equipment upstream of the headphones, or at least channel imbalance on the amplifier/s, which as previously discussed can be due to a gain mismatch while this is an inherent problem on analogue potentiometers, or due to a faulty pot. If it's happened on two different amps, statistically speaking both amps having a busted pot is kind of low.




Or you just prefer a midrange boost, so a Grado RS2 would be your best bet over any headphone and an amplifier.
Wow, lovely response, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much! I am not tech savvy enough to know how to quote individual aspects of your comment, so this response is going to be all over the place.

For the adapter, I bought a new Sennheiser 1/4". John thought that might be why the mids were so recessed/low quality vs. unamped, but the new adapter didn't seem to change anything.

I gather from your response that it's normal for IEMagni to have much less bass response than Atom? You believe that's just how they're built?

I did consider that the potentiometer could be at fault for channel imbalance, but isn't that only an issue at low volumes? On Atom, at low gain, volume was almost up to halfway, and on IEMagni at low/mid gain (not lowest gain), it was probably up two thirds. Maybe the low gain on each of these amps is not the same DB? I cannot seem to figure out why I would need more volume on the IEMagni when considering that it's a lot more powerful of an amp. Is it because of the existence of the lowest gain setting, even though I am not using that setting?

I agree that I tend to adore mid-focused headphones, and the HE400i is considered U-shaped, I guess? :frowning2: It was really the only respected mid-fi headphone I could afford.
 
Aug 16, 2021 at 4:46 AM Post #10 of 16
take your hifiman to a hi-fi store. try them there on another amp.
listen with my magni 3 at 9 o`clock or higher. zero imbalance issues
I wish I had one near me! :'(
 
Aug 16, 2021 at 5:49 AM Post #11 of 16
Wow, lovely response, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much! I am not tech savvy enough to know how to quote individual aspects of your comment, so this response is going to be all over the place.

For the adapter, I bought a new Sennheiser 1/4". John thought that might be why the mids were so recessed/low quality vs. unamped, but the new adapter didn't seem to change anything.

I gather from your response that it's normal for IEMagni to have much less bass response than Atom? You believe that's just how they're built?

I did consider that the potentiometer could be at fault for channel imbalance, but isn't that only an issue at low volumes? On Atom, at low gain, volume was almost up to halfway, and on IEMagni at low/mid gain (not lowest gain), it was probably up two thirds. Maybe the low gain on each of these amps is not the same DB? I cannot seem to figure out why I would need more volume on the IEMagni when considering that it's a lot more powerful of an amp. Is it because of the existence of the lowest gain setting, even though I am not using that setting?

I agree that I tend to adore mid-focused headphones, and the HE400i is considered U-shaped, I guess? :frowning2: It was really the only respected mid-fi headphone I could afford.
Gain has almost nothing to do with power in wats. Gain is just that a gan you add to your signal. 1x gain no amplification(signal goes trough the Amp as if it's a buffer same loudness more power) 3x gain 6x are amplified signals. One is how much power gets delivered by the Amp and gain shows how much the signal is being amplified.
 
Aug 16, 2021 at 12:03 PM Post #12 of 16
For the adapter, I bought a new Sennheiser 1/4". John thought that might be why the mids were so recessed/low quality vs. unamped, but the new adapter didn't seem to change anything.

I never noticed adapters changing the sound other than outright failure like signal drop outs due to bad connections.

They will not meaningfully alter the sound unless you had one made of, say, pure silver vs another one made of pure copper, ie why it can matter for cables but not for adapters or even adapters with two plugs connected by a short cable.


I gather from your response that it's normal for IEMagni to have much less bass response than Atom? You believe that's just how they're built?

I haven't heard the Atom much less vs a Magni, so I did not mean that specifically about this comparison. I'm just saying that generally Schiit has half its product line being less warm than many other brands'. The other half - Asgard and Lyr - are not markedly leaner/brighter, and the Valhalla is only "lean" or "bright" in comparison to most other OTL amps let alone the Darkvoice.


I did consider that the potentiometer could be at fault for channel imbalance, but isn't that only an issue at low volumes? On Atom, at low gain, volume was almost up to halfway, and on IEMagni at low/mid gain (not lowest gain), it was probably up two thirds.

If you're well past 9:00 on the dial and you're still getting an imbalance the only way the pot is the problem would be if it's a very bad potentiometer design, or somehow you have two different brand amps both with broken pots. The latter is highly unlikely though.

Still, if you're not getting any imbalance not using an amplifier - for example hooking up the HE400i to a smartphone - then the problem isn't with the HE400i either.

What analogue interconnects are you using? Did you try flipping the connectors? If you only flip them on one side and the issue shifts then it could be the cable. If you're using the same source unit then it could be there too so try another one.



Maybe the low gain on each of these amps is not the same DB?

Amps having the exact same gain is only more common than two different car models having the exact same gear ratios even if the body type and engine displacement were the same. And in this case the reason why there is an IEMagni on top of there being a Magni is because it's a Magni with very low gain.

It's kind of like Meier audio amplifiers from the 2000s that could be used with IEMs and Grados, even the most powerful ones, because they had a -10dB low gain and a +4dB high gain, basically constricting the output so much at low gain as to allow for the knob to move past the point where the potentiometer has uneven output even on a 120dB/1mW IEM like my Aurisonics ASG-1. Now the Jazz has +0dB low gain and +16dB low gain because it uses a digital volume control that doesn't have an imbalance so they can just give you higher gain for say a 90dB/1mW planar headphone.


I cannot seem to figure out why I would need more volume on the IEMagni when considering that it's a lot more powerful of an amp.

Because gain determines how fast things get loud, not just the power. Same way my Meier Cantate.2 can have about 1watt/channel IIRC but if you set it to -10dB low gain you can get to between 8:00 and 9:00 on the dial to get past imbalance and not blow out your eardrums, and yet my 500mW/ch Pangea HP101 can blow out my eardrums before it gets past imbalance if I put an IEM on it.

Look at it this way. It wouldn't matter if you have a Lamborghini - let alone an old one with the Reverse and 1st gear on the left - if you put the wrong transmission ratios on it. If the ratios are too high and you've barely moved off the line with the V12 just spinning the rear tyres and now you have to do a dog leg 1-2 shift while the Porsche with 35% horsepower and torque is already well into 2nd gear and flying down the drag strip. Too low gear ratios and you'll probably get off the line just fine, only for the Porsche to get to 3rd and about to shift into 4th near the finish line while you've just kind of hit the 7000rpm shift point in 2nd gear. (and this is just in a drag race; it gets even more complicated once you have to turn at various kinds of corners and patterns of corners)

If you don't drive, I hope you at least have a bicycle, because gear ratios work the same way there too but with a 1mp power source: you can't use the regular go pick something up at the store bike's gear ratios and expect to outrun somebody in a mountain bike going uphill (unless the 1mp power source varies enough, like, if he has emphysema or corona virus disease). If you have a camera, low gain is like having a neutral density filter.


Is it because of the existence of the lowest gain setting, even though I am not using that setting?

If you're not using that setting then it shouldn't matter, but if the gain setting on the Atom is not the same as the Magni's then you can still have a good variance in output that would not line up with what you think the output would have to be based on dial rotation because again dial rotation is like throttle angle (or how deep you step on the accelerator) while gain is like transmission gear ratios.

And again both amps having something screwed up is statistically unlikely vs having something else in the chain that is in both screwing up. If you use the same source then it could be the problem; if you use the same cable and source then it could also be the cable; if you're using the same cable for two different sources and get the same problem then it could be the cable, or ya know...the HE400i.


I agree that I tend to adore mid-focused headphones, and the HE400i is considered U-shaped, I guess? :frowning2: It was really the only respected mid-fi headphone I could afford.

I don't like these descriptions to start with because it is easily misinterpreted. A "u" means the extremes are elevated. The HE400i doesn't have the extremes elevated, it has the midrange scalloped out. If it looks like a latter it looks like a cursive smaller case "v" by somebody with whatever an FBI profiler will associate with why the apex on the V isn't sufficiently pointy. And even "u-shaped" response graphs don't even look like a "u," some look like cursive W's with spikes all over and the ends rise but then nosedive into the extreme ends.



It was really the only respected mid-fi headphone I could afford.

Apart from it not matching your preferences, the HE400i is only respected for performance. Reliability and ease of serviceability vis a vis factory support...not so much. So given two amps have a problem with it that may not just be in terms of whether they're tuned to the sound you're used to and prefer, the possibility that there's something wrong with the headphone can't be discounted.

I mean if there was no imbalance and you really just think the sound is very weak then at least that's attributable to the possibility that your ears may have very weak response at the upper midrange as to perceive +5dB at 3500hz to be much better than -5dB at the same range.

For a similar example but on sensitivity than amp power: I have the Aurisonics ASG-1.3 which is 120dB/1mW at 1000hz, but everything above that is on average weaker by about -3dB, and a KZ ZSN which is 112dB/1mW at 1000hz and has a huge mountain range in the 2500hz to 8000hz range, and despite the 8dB/1mW difference in sensitivity I can crank up the Aurisonics more if I just go by "at what point do my ears tap out?" because at the same output level that 2500hz to 8000hz range would be roughly 11dB louder than on the Aurisonics.
 
Aug 18, 2021 at 9:25 PM Post #13 of 16
Gain has almost nothing to do with power in wats. Gain is just that a gan you add to your signal. 1x gain no amplification(signal goes trough the Amp as if it's a buffer same loudness more power) 3x gain 6x are amplified signals. One is how much power gets delivered by the Amp and gain shows how much the signal is being amplified.
Same loudness, more power... So this is how an amp greatly improves sound quality without necessarily increasing volume? I always hear people saying that such and such device will power a headphone sufficiently, in terms of volume, but they are ignoring that an external amp should improve sound quality.
 
Aug 18, 2021 at 9:41 PM Post #14 of 16
I never noticed adapters changing the sound other than outright failure like signal drop outs due to bad connections.

They will not meaningfully alter the sound unless you had one made of, say, pure silver vs another one made of pure copper, ie why it can matter for cables but not for adapters or even adapters with two plugs connected by a short cable.




I haven't heard the Atom much less vs a Magni, so I did not mean that specifically about this comparison. I'm just saying that generally Schiit has half its product line being less warm than many other brands'. The other half - Asgard and Lyr - are not markedly leaner/brighter, and the Valhalla is only "lean" or "bright" in comparison to most other OTL amps let alone the Darkvoice.




If you're well past 9:00 on the dial and you're still getting an imbalance the only way the pot is the problem would be if it's a very bad potentiometer design, or somehow you have two different brand amps both with broken pots. The latter is highly unlikely though.

Still, if you're not getting any imbalance not using an amplifier - for example hooking up the HE400i to a smartphone - then the problem isn't with the HE400i either.

What analogue interconnects are you using? Did you try flipping the connectors? If you only flip them on one side and the issue shifts then it could be the cable. If you're using the same source unit then it could be there too so try another one.





Amps having the exact same gain is only more common than two different car models having the exact same gear ratios even if the body type and engine displacement were the same. And in this case the reason why there is an IEMagni on top of there being a Magni is because it's a Magni with very low gain.

It's kind of like Meier audio amplifiers from the 2000s that could be used with IEMs and Grados, even the most powerful ones, because they had a -10dB low gain and a +4dB high gain, basically constricting the output so much at low gain as to allow for the knob to move past the point where the potentiometer has uneven output even on a 120dB/1mW IEM like my Aurisonics ASG-1. Now the Jazz has +0dB low gain and +16dB low gain because it uses a digital volume control that doesn't have an imbalance so they can just give you higher gain for say a 90dB/1mW planar headphone.




Because gain determines how fast things get loud, not just the power. Same way my Meier Cantate.2 can have about 1watt/channel IIRC but if you set it to -10dB low gain you can get to between 8:00 and 9:00 on the dial to get past imbalance and not blow out your eardrums, and yet my 500mW/ch Pangea HP101 can blow out my eardrums before it gets past imbalance if I put an IEM on it.

Look at it this way. It wouldn't matter if you have a Lamborghini - let alone an old one with the Reverse and 1st gear on the left - if you put the wrong transmission ratios on it. If the ratios are too high and you've barely moved off the line with the V12 just spinning the rear tyres and now you have to do a dog leg 1-2 shift while the Porsche with 35% horsepower and torque is already well into 2nd gear and flying down the drag strip. Too low gear ratios and you'll probably get off the line just fine, only for the Porsche to get to 3rd and about to shift into 4th near the finish line while you've just kind of hit the 7000rpm shift point in 2nd gear. (and this is just in a drag race; it gets even more complicated once you have to turn at various kinds of corners and patterns of corners)

If you don't drive, I hope you at least have a bicycle, because gear ratios work the same way there too but with a 1mp power source: you can't use the regular go pick something up at the store bike's gear ratios and expect to outrun somebody in a mountain bike going uphill (unless the 1mp power source varies enough, like, if he has emphysema or corona virus disease). If you have a camera, low gain is like having a neutral density filter.




If you're not using that setting then it shouldn't matter, but if the gain setting on the Atom is not the same as the Magni's then you can still have a good variance in output that would not line up with what you think the output would have to be based on dial rotation because again dial rotation is like throttle angle (or how deep you step on the accelerator) while gain is like transmission gear ratios.

And again both amps having something screwed up is statistically unlikely vs having something else in the chain that is in both screwing up. If you use the same source then it could be the problem; if you use the same cable and source then it could also be the cable; if you're using the same cable for two different sources and get the same problem then it could be the cable, or ya know...the HE400i.




I don't like these descriptions to start with because it is easily misinterpreted. A "u" means the extremes are elevated. The HE400i doesn't have the extremes elevated, it has the midrange scalloped out. If it looks like a latter it looks like a cursive smaller case "v" by somebody with whatever an FBI profiler will associate with why the apex on the V isn't sufficiently pointy. And even "u-shaped" response graphs don't even look like a "u," some look like cursive W's with spikes all over and the ends rise but then nosedive into the extreme ends.





Apart from it not matching your preferences, the HE400i is only respected for performance. Reliability and ease of serviceability vis a vis factory support...not so much. So given two amps have a problem with it that may not just be in terms of whether they're tuned to the sound you're used to and prefer, the possibility that there's something wrong with the headphone can't be discounted.

I mean if there was no imbalance and you really just think the sound is very weak then at least that's attributable to the possibility that your ears may have very weak response at the upper midrange as to perceive +5dB at 3500hz to be much better than -5dB at the same range.

For a similar example but on sensitivity than amp power: I have the Aurisonics ASG-1.3 which is 120dB/1mW at 1000hz, but everything above that is on average weaker by about -3dB, and a KZ ZSN which is 112dB/1mW at 1000hz and has a huge mountain range in the 2500hz to 8000hz range, and despite the 8dB/1mW difference in sensitivity I can crank up the Aurisonics more if I just go by "at what point do my ears tap out?" because at the same output level that 2500hz to 8000hz range would be roughly 11dB louder than on the Aurisonics.
You have been a wonderful, tremendous help, and I am grateful that you avail yourself as a free resource of education. I have decided to return the Schiit amp, thoroughly evaluate the channel balance on HE400i & cable (using mono), and potentially purchase another Atom amp. Is that the course of action you'd take? I am losing a lot of money doing all of this, but it's far too risky to keep the IEMagni when I don't know if it's faulty. I sort of hate the bass response compared to Atom, but then again, maybe it's because I used Atom with a DAC and IEMagni with 1/8" to RCA (computer DAC)? I have no idea. Schiit doesn't allow enough time to return items for me to buy a DAC.

Regarding the adapter, John said a lot of 1/4" are faulty and result in bad signal, so that is why I tried a new one.
Interconnects used with Atom stack were new from JDS Labs, and interconnects used with Schiit were new Monoprice.
I love your analogies and am trying my best to understand!
 
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Aug 19, 2021 at 2:08 AM Post #15 of 16
Same loudness, more power... So this is how an amp greatly improves sound quality without necessarily increasing volume? I always hear people saying that such and such device will power a headphone sufficiently, in terms of volume, but they are ignoring that an external amp should improve sound quality.
Simplest way to see this is: gain =how loud it gets while power/watts = how well it controlled and reproduced. To little power and everything sounds thin. So yes more or less, other things are also involved in it like the component choices make the biggest difference. If done right most people would never notice any lack of power in any device. If you feel more power is required get a emotiva bass x 100 Amp and remove the jumper on headphone port or get any vintage speaker Amp of around 50wpc and plug straight in to its speaker outputs. Personally find that none of these cheapo headphone amps are worth it unless you specifically need something the size and don't care about the sound quality sacrifice. Any good speaker Amp willblowthese so called headphone amps out of the water. Only caveat it has to have the headphone out coming straight from speaker output. Otherwise it's not gonna be any good.
 
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