Frustrated with Cymbals

[gregorio]

When i would listen to music mixed/mastered by you, it would sound correct/as it should with flat references, but you personally would like to have it more bass and hence you listen to the mix with a secondary monitors with a house curve that represents the music how you personally would like to hear it, is that correct?

Not exactly. I have a slight propensity to add a little too much bass, in other words, if it sounds exactly right to me it will have a tiny bit too much bass. I can therefore work two ways, on a flat system and make a mix that sounds slightly bass light to me (IE. Mentally compensating) or on a system with a couple of dB boost in the bass. Either way, my finished mix/master has the correct amount of bass but it’s easier for me to do the latter and not have to think about it. Sometimes of course, I’m mixing with others present or playing back to the clients for approval. For this reason I have two monitor correction curves which I can easily switch between, one with the slight bass boost when I’m alone and one without when others are present.

Many experienced commercial mix/mastering engineers are the same, we discover our “propensities” over time and compensate (mentally and/or with a house curve), again, Bob Katz being a famous example. This is just for the main monitors, my reference monitors have no correction at all, they’re just the cheapest/crappiest TV speakers. I want them to sound uncorrected and cheap/crappy and a tiny boost in the bass is not going to make much/any difference.

G

 

[Vamp898]

Hmmm if you give the Album to 5 Studios, you get 5 results with 5 different amounts of bass.

I personally (of course, just my opinion) would just mix it how i think it sounds best, the customer has the last word anyway. But of course, if the customer always says "It has too much bass" than maybe there is something one need to adjust, that is true.

Or you find the customers who want/like exactly that and give you the reputation for the "Best Studio when you want the best Bass" or something like that^^

But unrelated to that, if you have an reference how an Cymbal sounds in real life, your job as Mixing/Mastering Engineer is, of course, to make it sound as close to the real thing as possible, without any added "Taste", as long as the customer wants that.

And to my experience, it is not that common that the customer wants true to live. Especially Metal Bands often want their Drum kit to sound nothing like it sounded in real life but that is a whole different story.

In that case, the frustration about wrong sounding cymbals (if the topic starter uses flat reference) could be just that the artist does not wanted them to sound correct in the first place.

My initial point that i maybe did not made clear enough: If you use a flat/correct reference and the cymbals still sound wrong, they are supposed to sound wrong to begin with as i would assume, the customer listened back on the result using Flat/Accurate reference monitors and said "Yes, i want exactly that, it sounds good".

But i assume that the IEM he tested so far have been everything but Flat/Accurate and hence my recommendation would be to check, how the mixes sound with something that is flat.

Maybe not how he likes, but EQ exists and usually, most companies who make flat references for musicians, make the exact same thing with boosted bass.

Westone Mach 50/60 or 70/80
FitEar MH334 and MH335DW

and so on.

 

[2leftears]

Hi @gregorio & @Vamp898; non sound engineer jumping into this interesting discussion (my apologies), but to a layman like me this sounds like a red herring?

Irrespective of whether a sound engineer prefers to work with a house curve during mixing, or with a flat curve, can they not still come up with the same final mix if they know what they are doing and are aware of their own preference?

Re. bass (and seeing one of you is a mixer of Japanese music); I particularly like the bass line in much of Japanese Rock music. But often it is a bit buried in the mix which boosting the bass frequencies at home doesn't quite help. Given the low(ish) cost of data and/or bandwidth these days, aside from the regular mix I wish tracks were made available in multiple mixed versions that highlight each instrument (especially the bass , but others might want to hear the drums or guitar more prominently); any chance of that happening in the future?

As an example of what I mean: Rubens' "Kaze wo tomenaide" has the bass buried just a bit too much to my liking in the original mix, but their bass player Mary has kindly provided a mix on her own channel where she prominently plays the bass part over the original mix. In my experience you can't get that same effect by playing around with EQ at home. When you buy an album it would be nice to get a few of those 'feature' track mixes included as standard.

 

[bagwell359]

Who the F listens to music to hear high-hats and cymbals for that matter. I feel like this all came from reviewers getting obsessed with this stuff, not actual people that listen to music.

For me it comes from wanting to hear music that creates to a greater extent the live experience. If something is off, it does tend to color ones perceptions and decrease that sense. People writing here, are actually giving reviews. Obsession is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[gregorio]

I personally (of course, just my opinion) would just mix it how i think it sounds best, the customer has the last word anyway. But of course, if the customer always says "It has too much bass" than maybe there is something one need to adjust, that is true.

Yes, the client of course has the last word but I generally wouldn’t base my working practice on clients’ preferences because they can be a bit whacky and they usually have a limited understanding. Typically they’ll feel something isn’t quite how they want it but the suggestion they’ll give you to put it right is incorrect, so they might say something like “I need a bit more bass” but when you add more bass they realise it’s even worse and what they actually wanted was more punch in a bass instrument and the solution was actually completely different, a bit more mid for example (or something else). You eventually learn to “read between the lines” of what clients request. However, it does depend on the client, if Dave Gilmour says his guitar has a bit too much bass or Placido Domingo says the same about his voice, then their long and illustrious experience of their own sound production warrants a bit more influence.

Hmmm if you give the Album to 5 Studios, you get 5 results with 5 different amounts of bass.

True but how much influence that has depends on the producer and also the studio. If for example one of those studios is Abbey Road and the others are talented self taught guys with great setups in their basement, which would influence you more? I was very lucky that I worked a fair amount at some world class studios, Abbey Road, Air, CTS, The Hit Factory, etc., with some of the world’s best engineers and if they told you something, then you listened. Likewise, when I went to test a score mix at a top dubbing theatre with an Oscar winning re-recording engineer and when I arrived I had to sit and be quiet for 10 minutes because he hadn’t finished recording ADR with Al Pacino, or you do the same with a double Oscar winning re-recording engineer who mixed some of the most iconic films in history and while you’re having coffee with him Tim Burton phones him for some advice, again, you listen carefully to their observations and advice, especially if you’ve only been in the business for a few years.

I don’t mean to “name drop” with all the above, just to explain that it very much depends on what you’re being told, where and by whom. Of course these days you can also verify what you’re being told with all the spectral and other analysis tools at our disposal.

But unrelated to that, if you have an reference how an Cymbal sounds in real life, your job as Mixing/Mastering Engineer is, of course, to make it sound as close to the real thing as possible, without any added "Taste", as long as the customer wants that.

And to my experience, it is not that common that the customer wants true to live. Especially Metal Bands often want their Drum kit to sound nothing like it sounded in real life but that is a whole different story.

Drum kits in metal bands are quite an extreme example but that’s true to a greater or lesser extent across pretty much every genre. Clients are more interested in “good” than “accurate” (true to life), although to be “good” will usually also require some amount of accuracy to RL. Experienced professional musicians will know that what they hear when performing their instrument will be significantly different to what the audience hear many meters away, so they will usually not want exactly “as it sounds in real life”, they want it to sound as good as possible to a hypothetical audience and this is true across all genres, even classical.

I therefore don’t agree that it’s the engineers’ job “to make it sound as close to the real thing as possible”! Certainly you need to know what it sounds like in real life but that is never the determining factor, just a greater or lesser influence. The job of an engineer is as much artistic as technical, it’s to make it sound “good”, not as close to the real thing as possible!

In this particular case though, little of the above applies. I’m not sure how far past the OP you read, but the issue was not frustration with the sound of cymbals, it was that the OP didn’t know what a closed hi-hat is, and expected it to sound like and have the decay of a splash cymbal.

G

 

[Vamp898]

Yes, the client of course has the last word but I generally wouldn’t base my working practice on clients’ preferences because they can be a bit whacky and they usually have a limited understanding. Typically they’ll feel something isn’t quite how they want it but the suggestion they’ll give you to put it right is incorrect, so they might say something like “I need a bit more bass” but when you add more bass they realise it’s even worse and what they actually wanted was more punch in a bass instrument and the solution was actually completely different, a bit more mid for example (or something else). You eventually learn to “read between the lines” of what clients request. However, it does depend on the client, if Dave Gilmour says his guitar has a bit too much bass or Placido Domingo says the same about his voice, then their long and illustrious experience of their own sound production warrants a bit more influence.

True but how much influence that has depends on the producer and also the studio. If for example one of those studios is Abbey Road and the others are talented self taught guys with great setups in their basement, which would influence you more? I was very lucky that I worked a fair amount at some world class studios, Abbey Road, Air, CTS, The Hit Factory, etc., with some of the world’s best engineers and if they told you something, then you listened. Likewise, when I went to test a score mix at a top dubbing theatre with an Oscar winning re-recording engineer and when I arrived I had to sit and be quiet for 10 minutes because he hadn’t finished recording ADR with Al Pacino, or you do the same with a double Oscar winning re-recording engineer who mixed some of the most iconic films in history and while you’re having coffee with him Tim Burton phones him for some advice, again, you listen carefully to their observations and advice, especially if you’ve only been in the business for a few years.

I don’t mean to “name drop” with all the above, just to explain that it very much depends on what you’re being told, where and by whom. Of course these days you can also verify what you’re being told with all the spectral and other analysis tools at our disposal.

As a born German living in Japan, most of these names don't tell me anything anyway i never heard of any of these studios.

But chances are you never heard of the famous and award winning recording/mixing/mastering Engineer mitsuharu harada, sugiyama yuuji, masashi uramoto or miyuki nakamura. Probably you might never heard of the Aobadai Studios who made one of the best recordings that exist on this planet.

I hope i don't break the heart of anyone, but these names just say nothing to me. I know Al Pacino but never watched any movies from him, i just know he makes movies.

//EDIT: I linked the names as they are hard to find when you do not search in Japanese

Drum kits in metal bands are quite an extreme example but that’s true to a greater or lesser extent across pretty much every genre. Clients are more interested in “good” than “accurate” (true to life), although to be “good” will usually also require some amount of accuracy to RL. Experienced professional musicians will know that what they hear when performing their instrument will be significantly different to what the audience hear many meters away, so they will usually not want exactly “as it sounds in real life”, they want it to sound as good as possible to a hypothetical audience and this is true across all genres, even classical.

I therefore don’t agree that it’s the engineers’ job “to make it sound as close to the real thing as possible”! Certainly you need to know what it sounds like in real life but that is never the determining factor, just a greater or lesser influence. The job of an engineer is as much artistic as technical, it’s to make it sound “good”, not as close to the real thing as possible!

That was a bit over simplified, that is true. If you're talking about Hifi, highest possible fidelity, than this is your job. But more often than not, this is not what is wished in the first place.

 

[gregorio]

Hi @gregorio & @Vamp898; non sound engineer jumping into this interesting discussion (my apologies), but to a layman like me this sounds like a red herring?

Not entirely. There are some audiophiles that go to extremes to strive for flat reproduction and while it’s generally a good idea to get in the ball park, you can go too extreme, even to the point of it being counter-productive. There are numerous myths in the audiophile world and many of them go beyond what’s actually on the recordings (and the intent) they’re trying to reproduce!

Irrespective of whether a sound engineer prefers to work with a house curve during mixing, or with a flat curve, can they not still come up with the same final mix if they know what they are doing and are aware of their own preference?

Yes, although of course that depends on the engineer. Some kids in their bedrooms with a laptop and DAW software call themselves engineers but there’s a big difference between that and an engineer who’s being doing it for many years in various world class commercial studios.

For me it comes from wanting to hear music that creates to a greater extent the live experience.

That’s effectively an audiophile myth, in fact one of the very oldest audiophile myths. Because what you’re “wanting to hear” is something that is impossible and that virtually without exception, no one is trying to create in the first place. So what you’re effectively looking for is audiophile equipment that somehow changes the content of the recordings it’s reproducing to sound like something that it’s not (or even intended to be)!

G

 

[2leftears]

For me it comes from wanting to hear music that creates to a greater extent the live experience. If something is off, it does tend to color ones perceptions and decrease that sense. People writing here, are actually giving reviews. Obsession is in the eye of the beholder.

That’s effectively an audiophile myth, in fact one of the very oldest audiophile myths. Because what you’re “wanting to hear” is something that is impossible and that virtually without exception, no one is trying to create in the first place. So what you’re effectively looking for is audiophile equipment that somehow changes the content of the recordings it’s reproducing to sound like something that it’s not (or even intended to be)!

G

I recall having had this discussion with @gregorio

Tbh, outside of an acoustic live setting I attend in person, such as a classical performance, I don't really know what the "live experience" (or more precisely, "live sound") means anymore. Even with a classical performance the "live sound" will depend a lot on where you are sat in the audience.

Live rock concerts are amped, go through a mixing desk and have speakers set up according to the venue; the 'live' sound again will depend a lot on where you are in the audience.

'Live' studio recordings I see videos of often have the drummer sat in a separate cubicle acoustically isolated from the rest of the band; what really is the 'live' sound of the band there?

I am NOT criticising any of this by the way; I just want to point out that as a listener, my idea of what constitutes a 'live' sound has become somewhat muddled over the years, especially over the last year and since COVID, where I have seen an ever greater number of 'live in studio' recordings question my own belief as to what a 'live sound' really means, especially when everything has to be amped and go through a mixing desk anyway.

• Me standing a few metres away from an acoustic instrument being played; I have some notion of what the 'live sound' means in this context.
• Me standing a few metres away from an amped guitar being played, I get what the 'live experience' is, but the 'live sound' gets a bit more difficult to define since it depends a lot on where I am stood relative to the speaker.
• Standing in the audience of a rock concert with amped guitars & drums and a stack of speakers on the stage and off to the side. "Live experiece"? Sure. But the "live sound" really becomes a very subjective notion there.

 

[gregorio]

As a born German living in Japan, most of these names don't tell me anything anyway i never heard of any of these studios.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious? You claim to be a mixing/mastering engineer but you’ve never heard of the world’s first and most famous
recording studio where many of the things you rely on were invented or developed, stereo for example? Have you really never heard of the artists who recorded at those studios; the Beatles, Pink Floyd, Adele, Beyoncé, Micheal Jackson, Queen, Elton John, Aretha Franklin, Madonna, Kanye West, Eric Clapton, Rolling Stones, Black Sabbath, Stevie Wonder and countless others or of the films whose scores were recorded there: The James Bond and Harry Potter films, Interstellar, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Ben Hur, Aliens, Star Wars and countless others?

But chances are you never heard of the famous and award winning recording/mixing/mastering Engineer mitsuharu harada, sugiyama yuuji, masashi uramoto or miyuki nakamura. Probably you might never heard of the Aobadai Studios who made one of the best recordings that exist on this planet.

I’ve worked in Tokyo a couple of times (at Suntory Hall and the NHK Studios) but no, I’ve never heard of Aobadai Studios or the engineers you list. Apart from their own website (which is in Japanese) there’s very little information I can find about them and I don’t recognise any of the artists recorded there. It certainly looks like a decent commercial studio, with a decent, if somewhat modest, equipment list. Ironically, some of the equipment listed was actually invented/designed for Abbey Road!

If you're talking about Hifi, highest possible fidelity, than this is your job. But more often than not, this is not what is wished in the first place.

So your job is to do what is not “wished in the first place”? Why don’t you make your job to do what is wished in the first place? And, your assertion doesn’t really make any sense any way because “highest possible fidelity” of what? Even with acoustic instruments “highest possible fidelity” cannot be defined; a violin, trumpet, piano, snare drum or anything else, sounds very different from say 20cms away than it does from the middle of a concert hall 10s of meters away, what highest fidelity are you talking about? And you definitely do not want the “highest possible fidelity” of say an electric guitar, you want a massively distorted fidelity, so that it sounds like some sort of idealised concept rather than a stretched elastic band being plucked!

G

 

[gregorio]

Even with a classical performance the "live sound" will depend a lot on where you are sat in the audience.

Exactly and of course we never record a classical performance where you are sat in the audience, otherwise we’d record more audience than performance. With an orchestra for example we typically record from just above the conductor but with a couple of dozen or more mics closer to various sections of the orchestra and some nearer the ceiling and back of the venue to capture ambience.

Live rock concerts are amped, go through a mixing desk and have speakers set up according to the venue; the 'live' sound again will depend a lot on where you are in the audience.

And that’s even if they’re “live” to start with. Unless it’s just a gig down the pub, then most decent or large gigs will have at least some backing tracks, the lead vocal will almost certainly be auto-tuned if they’re even singing live to start with, very commonly the whole thing will just be mimed.

'Live' studio recordings I see videos of often have the drummer sat in a separate cubicle acoustically separated from the rest of the band; what really is the 'live' sound of the band there?

I’ve yet to see a “live studio recording video” that is in fact live. In every case I’ve seen, it’s edited together takes and the musicians are just miming or playing along with the already recorded mix. It’s a marketing tool.

G

 

[2leftears]

I’ve yet to see a “live studio recording video” that is in fact live. In every case I’ve seen, it’s edited together takes and the musicians are just miming or playing along with the already recorded mix. It’s a marketing tool.

G

No kidding. I've noticed an increasing number of videos that are marketed as the "official live video" but are in fact the album studio version of the song with some video-only footage from one (or sometimes several different!) concerts edited alongside. As if we don't notice that ...

 

[gregorio]

I've noticed an increasing number of videos that are marketed as the "official live video" but are in fact the album studio version of the song with some video-only footage from one (or sometimes several different!) concerts edited alongside. As if we don't notice that ...

Some/Many are a fair bit more sophisticated than that, they’ll do a separate mix that sounds a bit more live. Eg. Use some different takes, use them without some of the editing corrections, turn down the quantising and auto-tune a bit, not tie it as nicely together with compression and reverb, etc. So, it doesn’t sound like the polished studio album, it sounds like you’d think a live recording should sound but it’s still a mix that was completed previously that the musicians are playing along with when being filmed. I’ve been involved in more than one of these myself, so I’ve a good idea of how it’s done.

G

EDIT: Just noticed you are now talking about "official live video" as opposed to “live studio recording video”, which are two different things and my post above was regarding the latter. The "official live video" is still virtually never live though, it’s a mix that’s created from the mic inputs of the gig (if there were any!) + backing tracks and is rather idealised and edited, tuned and processed to a degree. Done a couple of these as well.

 

[Vamp898]

I can’t tell if you’re being serious? You claim to be a mixing/mastering engineer but you’ve never heard of the world’s first and most famous
recording studio where many of the things you rely on were invented or developed, stereo for example? Have you really never heard of the artists who recorded at those studios; the Beatles, Pink Floyd, Adele, Beyoncé, Micheal Jackson, Queen, Elton John, Aretha Franklin, Madonna, Kanye West, Eric Clapton, Rolling Stones, Black Sabbath, Stevie Wonder and countless others or of the films whose scores were recorded there: The James Bond and Harry Potter films, Interstellar, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Ben Hur, Aliens, Star Wars and countless others?

I think you have no idea what it means to not live in the USA

• The Beatles
  • No longer exist since 1970
  • Non of their releases made it into Japanese charts
  • Very rarely i heard them on a radio when i was a child. Last time probably was when i was 12
• Pink Floyd
  • Had 3 concerts in Japan in 1971, 1972 and 1988
  • Non of their releases made it into Japanese charts
  • Never heard a song from them
• Adele
  • Non of her releases made it into Japanese charts
  • I know parts of her songs but never listened to any of her songs as i simply don't like her music
• Beyoncé
  • Non of her releases made it into Japanese charts
  • Never listened to any Song of her as i think she is just not good, but that is purely a matter of taste
• Micheal Jackson
  • Non of his releases made it into Japanese charts
  • But obviously most people in Japan know him as the "Guy with the weird nose" in Japan
  • I never met one single Japanese who even knows he was once black
• Queen
  • They actually have an quite interesting history with Japan
  • Still the only number one Album in Japan was "A Day at the races" in 1976
    • That was 14 years before i was even born. The least thing i would care about is who mixed/mastered that
  • I think i know 1 or 2 songs of them. The most famous probably.
• Elton John
  • Half of his releases made it into Japanese Charts
    • Highest position was 4 in 1973
  • I think i never heard an song from him, not sure

As it is pretty time consuming to look all these information up, i stop here but i think you got the idea.

I just asked the daughter of my wifes sister, she is 16, she has not heard of any of these artists ever. And she loves music and listens to a lot of music. And this is no surprise. Nobody in Japan talks about them + almost half of them stopped making music before she was even born and non of their songs are played anywhere.

Did you know that Streaming Services are Region locked? I am not kidding, like Netflix & Co. are region locked for movies, Streaming services are too. So most of the releases of these artists, she could not even listen to even if she wanted because she can not get most of their releases anywhere.

As this discussion leads nowhere and hence is pointless i now continue watching my Live BluRay from アイナ・ジ・エンド that came out today.

In case you never heard of her

So your job is to do what is not “wished in the first place”? Why don’t you make your job to do what is wished in the first place?

Never said that.

And, your assertion doesn’t really make any sense any way because “highest possible fidelity” of what? Even with acoustic instruments “highest possible fidelity” cannot be defined; a violin, trumpet, piano, snare drum or anything else, sounds very different from say 20cms away than it does from the middle of a concert hall 10s of meters away, what highest fidelity are you talking about? And you definitely do not want the “highest possible fidelity” of say an electric guitar, you want a massively distorted fidelity, so that it sounds like some sort of idealised concept rather than a stretched elastic band being plucked!

G

There is a nice article on Wikipedia that explains what i meant. Read it or not, i don't care.

 

[gregorio]

I think you have no idea what it means to not live in the USA

There’s just one slight flaw in your assertion, I’m not American and I’ve never lived in the USA! I’ve visited and worked there quite a few times but I’m from the UK.

The Beatles

• No longer exist since 1970 ….

But their influence on how commercial recordings are made and mixed most certainly does still exist. Do engineers have any creative input into the recordings in Japan, they certainly do elsewhere in the world and the Beatles and Abbey Road Studios are largely the reason why. You mentioned the drumkit sound in metal music but you’ve never heard of the band/s or studios that invented it, Black Sabbath recorded at Air Studios. Presumably you’ve heard of stereo? Have you never heard of ANY of the bands, people or studios who defined the mixing of music despite the fact you actually claim to be a mixing engineer? How is it possible to be a competent professional mixing engineer without knowing anything about the history of mixing?

I just asked the daughter of my wifes sister, she is 16, she has not heard of any of these artists ever.

And is she claiming to be a mixing and mastering engineer as well?

There is a nice article on Wikipedia that explains what i meant. Read it or not, i don't care.

There’s lots of nice articles on Wikipedia and the occasional one that’s not entirely accurate, which article are you referring to?

G

 

[theveterans]

Cymbal solution is easy: just get a consumer oriented headphone/speaker like AirPods pro and you’ll hear a good reproduction of cymbals where nothing sounds sharp as the mastering is truly meant to sound great on those devices than any high performing gears and headphones