[ernzo]

Hi there!

I'm a Music Composer/Producer and Session Guitarist from Barcelona, Spain.

I'm a long time Beyerdynamic DT880 Pro 250Ohm user, having had three different sets in the last 6 years.
(with varying experiences, but that will make for a thread on its own..)

I'm looking for an upgrade, and based on the many positive reviews thought about giving a try to the AKG 712Pro,
and perhaps the Hifiman 400s or Sundara..

However there's not one single Shop in Barcelona that has them in exposition,
so I cannot try them, and therefore have no idea how good can they be.


-While looking around, I managed to demo the Senheiser HD600 and found them quite Disappointing..

In comparison with the Beyers they had an Abrassive, Compressed, very Undetailed, yucky sound that I didn't like at all;
And while they have a slightly Warmer tone, with more Mids, the Frequency range doesn't extend as much in either Highs and Lows.


In comparison the Beyers have a Clear/Crisp, Airy, Natural and very Detailed sound,
with extended Freq response, a wider soundstage.. and dare I say they're better in almost every aspect.
(my apologies! but I just can't see why the 600 are so highly regarded/respected..)

I'm not saying however the Beyers are Perfect tho..

They could have more Presence, more Mids, Low-Mids, Lows..
and the Soundstage could be more Defined/precise.

-And well, that's exactly what I'm looking for!

A headphone that retains most of the good Qualityies of the Beyers: Detail, Clarity, Airyness, Dynamism, Extension
but corrects or improves on some of the Weakneses: Warmth, Presence, Imaging


-So in your experience/opinion..
Do you think the AKG 712, or Hifiman 400S/Sundara could be an upgrade to the Beyers,
or represent an Improvement in any aspect?

Are they more similar/closer in sound to the Byers, or to the Senheisers?

What heaphone would be a direct Upgrade to the DT880s, besides the Beyer T1 or 1990?

IOW,
Name your absolute DT880 Killers: ...

 

[ernzo]

PS: On a side note, I also managed to demo the Meze Classic and Neo and.. I was completely Mindblown!

They have a very nice sound, with very Sweet and Liquid Highs, considerable Detail,
very nice and Present Mids.. and Mindblowingly Expansive and 3D-like Low frequencies.

It's a very Warm, Colorful, Liquid and Organic sound, with lots of Presence, proper Detail, and correct extension,
and even tho they're Closed-back, they seem to have a considerably Wide soundstage and Precise imaging..

I wasn't expecting them to sound this good at all, but I was Greatly surprised.

-The Neos have a slightly less "invasive" Bass, and sound a little bit more Airy/bright.. and that's good.

But the quality of that Bass is more Abrupt and Distorted, less Organic/Soft than on the Classics,
and the Imaging is perhaps less Precise or defined.

So if I had to choose, I think I would prefer the Classics.


-However, even with all this Qualities I'm not getting them yet..
Even tho I liked the Colorful, Liquid and Present sound, the generous Mids, and the precise presentation,

The Massive Bass response is just way too Excessive for any Professional work..
and would inevitably make me loose track of what I'm doing with the lower register instruments (Bass, Drums, Cello, Brass..)


So yeah, even tho they were a Great Surprise and Interesting offering..
I'm still looking for a more Balanced type of headphone for my daily Work purposes.

Once that is solved who knows..
I don't have a proper closed-back yet, so this could very well cover that area,
while also being a more Colorful set to listen to.

 

[Sefelt103]

I can't answer your question. I can say however one of the reasons the Sennheiser HD600 is so popular is that unlike the DT880 it's not bright. To find a headphone like the DT880 but with more sound quality will be difficult. Most headphones incorporate lots of euphonic harmonic distortion which eliminates vast numbers of headphones from your search. Perhaps Sony monitors MDR7506 ?

 

[SonyFan121]

Ernzo,
Have you never considered the AKG K702? the K702 has the right sound signature and tonal balance for acoustic string instruments such as acoustic guitar's,Cello's,Violin's,Harpsichord's. I used to have a Beyerdynamic DT880 600 Ohm and thought it was too bright sounding and unnatural. With the K702 I think the opposite. The K712 has a fuller sound signature compared to the K702. K712 is more suited to bassy music such as Electronic Dance Music. It's less natural sounding compared to the K702. You might also like the Beyerdynamic DT990. I had the DT990 250 Ohm and liked it allot, just not as much as the K702. The DT990 has a sound signature that I would describe as somewhere between the K702 and K712, kinda like the best of both. Although the K702 has the biggest soundstage.

 

[ernzo]

I can say however one of the reasons the Sennheiser HD600 is so popular is that unlike the DT880 it's not bright.

Right, well.. I didn't find them to be That different in terms of overall tonality,

They are a bit more Focused, with a Narrower Soundtsage and Extension
and Yes they are a tad Warmer with more Mids, maybe 5-10% more..

But at what price?
at the expense of everything else?

The biggest difference, and what really turned me off, was the Compressed and Abrasive sound, and the absolute lack of Detail..
everything felt Cluttered, Unclear and Undefined.. almost Distorted!


I demoed them with a Beyerdynamic A1 Amp, and listening to The Cardigans - Gran Turismo,
which even if it's 90's Pop/Rock, I consider it one of the best discs I could name in terms of Sound Quality..

And even in this, I would say Favorable environment.. they managed to Ruin the sound!

Listen to that disc with a pair of DT880's and any working amp,
and I'm betting you will be pleased with the experience.
(better in Flac than on youtube ofc..)

-Btw I never tried the Sony 7506's but I heard good things about them,
I will give them a go if I see them in exposition somewhere..

 

[ernzo]

Have you never considered the AKG K702? it has the right sound signature and tonal balance for acoustic string instruments such as acoustic guitar's,Cello's,Violin's,Harpsichord's ... The K712 has a fuller sound signature compared to the K702. K712 is more suited to bassy music such as Electronic Dance Music. It's less natural sounding compared to the K702. You might also like the Beyerdynamic DT990. I had the DT990 250 Ohm and liked it allot, just not as much as the K702. The DT990 has a sound signature that I would describe as somewhere between the K702 and K712, kinda like the best of both. Although the K702 has the biggest soundstage

Thank you for sharing your experience/opinion.

Yes, that's why I was really interested in trying the K712's..
I thought if they managed to somehow retain the Clarity and Detail of the Beyers,
but adding an improved Soundstage, Warmer tone and Comfort, I could very well find a nice upgrade or Alternative in them.

I also liked the Zeos Review, and the Sound Demo he posted,
specially the part with the Violin solo caught my attention..

Through my Beyers, they seem to sound quite Energetic and Detailed/Textured,
with a slight Veil covering the highs, but otherwise interesting..

But since it's physically impossible for me to try them, I just don't know what to expect.

I also heard some ppl rate the K701/2 as too Bright,
and some other guy complained that the sound can vary a lot depending on how the headphones are positioned on your head..
(this is a non existing problem with the Beyers)

Also the shop guy who let me try the Meze said in terms of sound the AKG were closer to the Senhesier than the Beyers,
so to say the truth I was starting to lose interest..

Ofc they remain as an option, and will still give them a try if I get the chance..
but it seems impossible here in Barcelona!

-So, I don't know..
Perhaps I should save a little more and go for the next level, be it the DT1990, Hifiman Sundara or any of the Focals...

Or whatever the next Solid step-up could be!

I used to have a Beyerdynamic DT880 600 Ohm and thought it was too bright sounding and unnatural.

Right.. the thing with Beyerdynamic is that their Quality Control is Not the best,
and there can be a big deal of Variation from one unit of the same headphone to the other..

I've had 5 different DT880 Pro's in my hands, and only 2 of them were properly good sounding units.
(and excellent at that..)

The other 3 had various problems, one was too overly Cold and Analytical,
and the other two had little imperfections like, Unbalanced Left/Right ears where one ear had more Volume than the other, or more Bass than the other, etc..

So in my experience it's really a Raffle,
if you're Lucky and get a Good pair, they can be the best headphones,
even your end-game headphones if you're just an average Joe.

But 3 times out of 5 you're gonna have problems with uneven drivers,
or wrong tonality/frequency response.

And that's actually one of the reasons why I thought about giving AKG or Hifiman a go,
rather than going directly for the T1 or DT1990..

 

[kman1211]

The Amiron Home(think a warmer bassier DT 880 with more body, better imaging, and detail), DT 1990 with analytical pads, and the T1.2 will be the upgrades. I found the Amiron Home to be the cleanest and smoothest of the Tesla's. There is slight roughness in the T1.2 and DT 1990 in direct comparison. The K712 is good but has a tad too much upper mids, some haze in the upper regions, and it’s bass/dynamics are quite dac and amp picky. Imaging is great and it has good detail. I would argue the K612 is more neutral than the K712 but I heard two pairs and they sounded wildly different, so there is that. But a properly correctly or synergized K712 may actually be better than the DT 880. The AKGs are definitely more midrange forward. Bass is quite different.

You hear the HD 6xx family like I do, they are abrasive and gritty directly compared to the Beyers. I find the HD 6xx family quite fatiguing to listen to long term due to this. The right synergy helps the Senns abrasiveness though but never fully eliminates it in my experience. The HD 800 thankfully doesn't have this abrasiveness but not a fan of it's stock tuning.

 

[atarione]

I've been rocking a pair of DT880 Premiums for 4~yrs now.. I have a DV 336SE I use with them (RCA 6AS7G/ RCA 6SN7GT) and I'm well pleased... for me unless I suddenly get the money for Amiron home.. which I don't feel like spending right now.. I'm sticking with my DT880's premiums.. so very comfortable.. which can't be said for the hifiman or Senn HD600/650.. etc that I've tried..

I don't care how much better something sounded if it isn't comfortable... it ain't going to be on my head..

 

[Sefelt103]

The biggest difference, and what really turned me off, was the Compressed and Abrasive sound, and the absolute lack of Detail..everything felt Cluttered, Unclear and Undefined.. almost Distorted!

This would indicate to me that your ears and mind were still expecting a DT880 headphone and you had not transitioned to hearing the HD600 optimally.

 

[ernzo]

Could be.. your brain really gets used to this kind of things.

But the thing is, with the HD600 I had Positive Expectations,
I thought it would be a Clear, Bright and Extended sound, not too different from the Beyers but perhaps a little bit more Focused and Cozy..

And maybe that's why I got so disappointed: it didn't fulfill my expectations,
it did worse, and it didn't bring anything New or Good to the table..


-A similar thing happened with the Beyer T90 I tried the same day..
I found it very similar to my DT880 but, more Focused and Clear, more Bright and Detailed.. a good presentation.

But, it was considerably LESS Warm than my DT880, and it had a very noticeable Bump on the Higher Freqs,
that made those notes/sounds stand out more than usual, or what would be necessary..

I liked the extra Detail and Focused presentation of this T90 unit,
but I will not change it for my DT880 as this particular unit has a considerably Warmer sound and lower register extension.


-On the other hand, I had absolutely No Expectations of the Meze Classics/Neo,
I thought it would be a constipated plasticky cheap thing, but.. I was completely Mindblown!

It had a lot of Detail, but it was delivered in a very Sweet and Organic way.
as if everything had a Golden shimmer surrounding it..

It didn't extend nearly as much as the Beyers in High Freqs,
but the Highs it had were covered in this Sweet Golden sheen, that made it very Organic and Liquid..

A very pleasant thing to listen to..

This sweetness extends to all frequencies, and it's part of the character of this headphone.

But as I said, even with all the Color, Sweetness and Focused presentation,
the Low frequencies were just too Massive for any professional use..

The Bass sounds were incredible to listen to, they seemed to jump at you,
and Bloom in a very Tactile and sweet way, revealing a new Dimension of sound you didn't knew existed..

Very Impressive..
I almost wish music was made with that 3D-like effect in mind!

But yeah, again this is simply too much for any professional work..

 

[ernzo]

A special Thanks to kman1211 and your very valuable experience/opinion.
It's hard to find someone with experience in Beyers that also knows the K712's..

I never considered the Amirons, but if it has Tesla drivers inside,
and it's a mellower/warmer version of the DT1990.. I should really take a good listen to them, if possible!

 

[kman1211]

A special Thanks to kman1211 and your very valuable experience/opinion.
It's hard to find someone with experience in Beyers that also knows the K712's..

I never considered the Amirons, but if it has Tesla drivers inside,
and it's a mellower/warmer version of the DT1990.. I should really take a good listen to them, if possible!

No problem. I always liked AKG's, the K7 series is good but I find they need some extra help to sound their best.

The Amiron Home has Tesla 2.0 drivers like the DT 1770 and DT 1990, it's mellower and warmer than the DT 1990, kinda unique sounding among Beyers but you can hear it's family resemblance to the snappier and punchier DT 1990. I'm quite a Beyer fan, owned some vintage Beyers too, some of which are amazing.

 

[SonyFan121]

I had the T70 250 ohm for a while - the best Beyerdynamic headphone i've heard by far. I even preferred it to the Astell & Kern T5P that I also owned. I actually found the sound signature of the T70 to be similar to the DT880 I had except the T70 had this remarkable dark background to everything I listened to with it. It created the impression that I was listening to an open-back headphone instead of a closed-back one. This was something that the T5P didn't even have. The best thing about the T70 was how it scaled with my most expensive amp, it easily outperformed Denon AH-D5000's I had, in all areas of sound quality except quantity of bass.
Still, no matter how technically superior the drivers in younger more expensive headphones may be, the one open-back headphone I would always choose for monitoring purposes and recording guitar would always be K702. It's the most natural sounding headphone i've ever heard, I must admit; "bright sounding " is one of the last terms I would use to describe the sound of the K702 and the first thing that comes to mind when thinking of the DT880.

 

[kman1211]

I had the T70 250 ohm for a while - the best Beyerdynamic headphone i've heard by far. I even preferred it to the Astell & Kern T5P that I also owned. I actually found the sound signature of the T70 to be similar to the DT880 I had except the T70 had this remarkable dark background to everything I listened to with it. It created the impression that I was listening to an open-back headphone instead of a closed-back one. This was something that the T5P didn't even have. The best thing about the T70 was how it scaled with my most expensive amp, it easily outperformed my Denon AH-D5000 in all areas of sound quality except quantity of bass.
Still, no matter how technically superior the drivers in younger more expensive headphones may be, the one open-back headphone I would always choose for monitoring purposes and recording guitar would always be K702. It's the most natural sounding headphone i've ever heard, I must admit; "bright sounding " is one of the last terms I would use to describe the sound of the K702 and the first thing that comes to mind when thinking of the DT880.

Wait until you hear a DT 48/480 driver the oldest dynamic driver of all, it's the definition of clarity, transparency, naturalness, and lack of distortion, the newer stuff isn't really technically better at all, just mod them to compensate for the incomplete FR response and you have a flagship killer. The AKG's really aren't that bright, if I tone down the upper mids a bit they are actually surprisingly dark and more fluid and liquid than you would expect.

 

[SonyFan121]

Wait until you hear a DT 48/480 driver the oldest dynamic driver of all, it's the definition of clarity, transparency, naturalness, and lack of distortion, the newer stuff isn't really technically better at all, just mod them to compensate for the incomplete FR response and you have a flagship killer. The AKG's really aren't that bright, if I tone down the upper mids a bit they are actually surprisingly dark and more fluid and liquid than you would expect.

You definitely have me interested in a DT48/480. If I see one on Ebay and if the price is not too much then I might buy one. I have lots of experience with AKG headphones and the K702 in particular, the K702 has been my reference open-back headphone for 10 whole years now, I know it well. I always find it odd when I hear someone describe the K702's sound as bright. My second favourite AKG headphone (just thought I would mention it anyway) is the Q701. I preferred the Q701 to the K712, I thought it scaled better and actually equaled the level of bass I got from my K712 when I used it with a Cyrus system I had. Q701 is the darkest sounding of the 7 series I think. Anyways, I would not describe any of the AKG headphones i've heard as bright sounding at all. I think that is a serious misunderstanding. Bright sounding headphones to me, are headphones that have too much emphasis on the high frequencies and bass frequencies, and recessed mid's. Or a complete emphasis on the high frequencies. The first headphone that falls in to that category for me is the DT880. The AKG K702 to me, has a perfect balance of bass, mid's and high's. Most people don't think K702 has bass but it does..and sub-bass too..they just need a good enough amp to reveal it.