[JohnnyD]

HI, I have been lurking on  this forum for the past few days and I have been really torn between getting the Focal Utopia or the HD 800s. I know the only true way for me to know is to hear them in person myself but I still like having other peoples input so that way I might learn something which might effect my end decision.
 
Anyways, I think I've probably read about 85% of post regarding the Focal Utopia and the HD 800 on this forum and one of the reoccurring points I've noticed is regarding the soundstage and the instrument separation of the HD 800's, some claiming it sounds "unnatural" when compared to the Utopia (or real life in general). I also read a post from thatonenoob who said that the Utopia sounded "cohesive" and I read another post from someone else (Can't remember the name) who said the Utopia did a great great job "blending the sounds together" which in my world (mixing/engineering) is NOT a good thing.
 
Now I said all of that to say this, I do a lot of audio work (mixing, etc..) and when listening to high end studio monitors I notice that the sound stage always sound larger and the instruments sound more spacious since it makes it easier to perform audio edits like,EQ, Reverb, Compression, etc...
 
So my thing is this, all of the people who don't like the soundstage of the HD 800, do you guy's do any type of audio editing or do you listen for simply enjoyment?
 
The second question I have is do you guy's think that Focal and Sennheiser might be targeting different type of users with their headphones?  Sennheiser focusing more on mixing enginners, producers, etc.. and Focal focusing more on the typical Audiophile?
 
Any input would be much appreciated...

 

[inthere]

I've been engineering professionally for 30+ years and if you're a pro too you'll know that the most popular mixing rule for at least the last 3 decades is you *don't* mix with headphones. This is because headphones are side/on ear presentation which is different from every other form of listening, which is frontal/distance  presentation. So it's not just frequency response, it's physics.
 
That said, there's much more headphone listening going on nowadays with iPods, iPads, iPhones, DAPs, workouts, etc. 
 
 Ideally, when mixing you always want multiple monitor sources. Most engineers I've worked with always duck outside to listen on their car sound systems, even when having 3 sets of monitors in the studio plus headphones. 
 
 With headphones, there is no universally perfect can for mixing. I sold my HD800 because I was subconsciously compensating for a severe lack of bass and my resulting mixes were muddy and bottom heavy. Clarity and reverb/effects decay was also borked when trying to monitor with them, because when I tried playback on average consumer systems like iPod/car system the effects decays basically disappeared. They simply couldn't reproduce that level of clarity. 
 
So after tens of thousands spent on headphones I found that you can't mix on high end headphones and expect it to sound sensational on Beats, which the overwhelming majority of the headphone listening world is using. 
 
 When searching for mixing headphones, I'd strongly suggest looking into the popularity of the Yamaha NS10. For 30+ years they've been industry standard and mandatory for every high end studio on the planet. 
 
 They sound like crap. They've always sounded like crap. 
 
 Yet no matter what high end 200k speaker system a major recording studio has, they always include those crappy NS10's-and engineers still run to their cars to check a mix on their crappy car sound systems.
 
 That's because they know that the music listening public is most likely using crap.
 
 What I'm trying to say is you'll probably have a much more accurate mix using Beats than the Focal Utopia OR the HD800.
 
 I'm personally getting the Focal Utopia in 2 weeks. My AKG 872 should be arriving today. I have the Ether C and sending it back for the Flow upgrade. I'll probably sell my LCD 4 when I get the Utopia.
 
 I love headphones, and my life would be complete if I could reliably mix with one of my hi-end headphones instead of crap like Beats or ATH M50's or even V-Moda.
 
But I can't. Save your money, unless you just want some sensational sounding headphones for fun listening, like me.  

 

[Renzuken]

Also, the Focal Utopias creak. A lot.

 

[JohnnyD]

  I've been engineering professionally for 30+ years and if you're a pro too you'll know that the most popular mixing rule for at least the last 3 decades is you *don't* mix with headphones. This is because headphones are side/on ear presentation which is different from every other form of listening, which is frontal/distance  presentation. So it's not just frequency response, it's physics.
 
That said, there's much more headphone listening going on nowadays with iPods, iPads, iPhones, DAPs, workouts, etc. 
 
 Ideally, when mixing you always want multiple monitor sources. Most engineers I've worked with always duck outside to listen on their car sound systems, even when having 3 sets of monitors in the studio plus headphones. 
 
 With headphones, there is no universally perfect can for mixing. I sold my HD800 because I was subconsciously compensating for a severe lack of bass and my resulting mixes were muddy and bottom heavy. Clarity and reverb/effects decay was also borked when trying to monitor with them, because when I tried playback on average consumer systems like iPod/car system the effects decays basically disappeared. They simply couldn't reproduce that level of clarity. 
 
So after tens of thousands spent on headphones I found that you can't mix on high end headphones and expect it to sound sensational on Beats, which the overwhelming majority of the headphone listening world is using. 
 
 When searching for mixing headphones, I'd strongly suggest looking into the popularity of the Yamaha NS10. For 30+ years they've been industry standard and mandatory for every high end studio on the planet. 
 
 They sound like crap. They've always sounded like crap. 
 
 Yet no matter what high end 200k speaker system a major recording studio has, they always include those crappy NS10's-and engineers still run to their cars to check a mix on their crappy car sound systems.
 
 That's because they know that the music listening public is most likely using crap.
 
 What I'm trying to say is you'll probably have a much more accurate mix using Beats than the Focal Utopia OR the HD800.
 
 I'm personally getting the Focal Utopia in 2 weeks. My AKG 872 should be arriving today. I have the Ether C and sending it back for the Flow upgrade. I'll probably sell my LCD 4 when I get the Utopia.
 
 I love headphones, and my life would be complete if I could reliably mix with one of my hi-end headphones instead of crap like Beats or ATH M50's or even V-Moda.
 
But I can't. Save your money, unless you just want some sensational sounding headphones for fun listening, like me.  

 
Yes, you are absolutely correct on the general rule of not mixing on headphones. My ideology was that this concept would eventually become out of date as headphones start using better technology and headphone amps such as the SPL Phonitor 2 which has the crosstalk feature which mimics exactly what monitors do in a studio setting. The problem is I live in an apartment and I don't really want to purchase a home right now so my only option is headphones while doing quick reference checks on monitors like the NS10s.
 
As far as using beats to mix, I would assume I would be worse off since these headphone aren't capable of reproducing certain frequency's very well, so there might be hidden artifacts in the mix that I would not pick up very well in those headphones.

 

[ZoNtO]

I'm a hobbyist, not a sound engineer. The "blending the sounds together" comment does not make sense. I think it's the result of a communication/translation error and should not be taken at face value.
 
I directly compared the Utopia to my (now sold) HD800 (SDR) a while ago and a few things were apparent:

1. The frequency response of the HD800, even with the resonator, is skewed and annoying. The Utopia is very balanced and actually neutral (not hyper-exaggerated treble audiophile pseudo-neutral).
2. The soundstage presentation of the HD800 is wider than the Utopia's.
3. The instrument separation on the Utopia is superb. Don't remember directly comparing this to HD800 so will not comment there.
4. The HD800 sound flat and two-dimensional compared to the Utopia. Utopia presented a greater sense of depth between instruments/performers. However, you are closer to the stage with the Utopia than the HD800.
5. The HD800 is more comfortable in most ways due to the larger ear cups and lighter weight. However, this also means they feel cheap and flimsy compared to the Utopias. 
6. The Utopia is more resolving.
7. The Utopia actually has bass.

 
Tyll's comparison notes between Utopia and HD800S:
 

Sennheiser HD 800 S - Thin and uninvolving when compared directly. Things sound disembodied and distant and lack the presence and heft of the Utopia. Astonishingly, the Utopia's treble sounds cleaner and more natural; in comparison I can easily hear how the over-emphatic 5kHz area on the Sennheiser disrupts the naturalness of the sound here. I'm sick of fighting with the HD 800. How many man-hours do you think have gone into fixing the fatal flaws of this otherwise world-class headphone? *sigh*

 

[JohnnyD]

Thanks ZoNtO, found that truly helpful. This does clear some things up, I wish I could listen to these things in person but thus far I cannot find a single dealer in Miami that has the Utopia on display.

 

[Toolman]

  ...I have been really torn between getting the Focal Utopia or the HD 800s. I know the only true way for me to know is to hear them in person myself but I still like having other peoples input so that way I might learn something which might effect my end decision.

 
Granted, if you could listen to both these headphone side by side, there wouldn't even be a decision needed to be made. Right from the first minute, you will find that Focal Utopia just sounded fuller, more authoritative and overall a much more complete, better built and vastly more enjoyable headphone (pricing aside) as far as I am concerned...and I owned both headphones

 

[JohnnyD]

   
Granted, if you could listen to both these headphone side by side, there wouldn't even be a decision needed to be made. Right from the first minute, you will find that Focal Utopia just sounded fuller, more authoritative and overall a much more complete, better built and vastly more enjoyable headphone (pricing aside) as far as I am concerned...and I owned both headphones

Thanks for that Toolman, nice to hear from some who has actually owned both. I just finished watching the Head-Fi review video on these headphones and just looking at the technology that went into building these headphones, i'm convinced that these headphones are in a league of their own

 

[Music Alchemist]

The thing about listening to two different headphones (and coincidingly, reading others' impressions of them) is that you are dealing with two different tunings. Frequency response is one of the most (if not the most) apparent things you notice when you hear a headphone. What I'm getting at is that you cannot accurately assess the capabilities of headphones when the different frequency responses are getting in the way of analyzing everything else. After you have equalized both headphones to have roughly the same frequency response (ideally as accurate as possible...which can be tricky, since there are various compensation curves relating to that, and many ways of going about it; see the EQ guides on this site for further details), you are then in a position to compare the headphones in a way that better reflects what they can really do. The problem is that most people never do this. So remember that when you read headphone impressions, one of the primary factors is the stock frequency response, which can easily be tweaked. Without EQ, you may like a more expensive headphone more than a more affordable one; conversely, you may prefer the cheaper model after EQ. You won't know until you try. I have no doubt that the Utopia is the better headphone overall, but you may (or may not; there are no guarantees) find that you prefer the HD 800 if you were to equalize them, in which case you could save a considerable amount of money. Unfortunately, you would need to spend a good deal of time with both of them in order to do this, and that would most likely involve buying both, then returning the one you don't want to keep. Since you are considering the Utopia, that shouldn't be too much of a problem, and you could even share your findings with others on this forum. There aren't many threads comparing equalized headphones, after all.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Also, the Focal Utopias creak. A lot.

Maybe earlier models did...mine don't at all.

 

[buke9]

I didn't hear any creaking from them. I just heard only awesome sound.

 

[Renzuken]

Huh. Must've been an old model, then.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Huh. Must've been an old model, then.

 
Most likely an early review sample.

 

[inthere]

As far as using beats to mix, I would assume I would be worse off since these headphone aren't capable of reproducing certain frequency's very well, so there might be hidden artifacts in the mix that I would not pick up very well in those headphones.

Well that would be like eliminating dog whistles................nobody will hear them anyway. Seriously, any glaring artifacts would be heard on the Beats and anything else would be something .05% of the $1000+ headphone buying nerdy audiophiles would notice if they were specifically looking for it, if they even listened to your specific music genre.

Go to a music appreciation thread and play some of the poorly engineered crap that the Stax and hi end buyers are raving about........

On the other hand, Beats are the worlds most popular headphone, which is a good starting point, and if your mix sounds great on Beats it'll sound sensational on everything else, while if your mix sounds great on Utopias, you can only be sure it'll sound great on Utopias, because almost nothing sounds as good as Utopias......same philosophy as NS 10's.

 

[JohnnyD]

Well that would be like eliminating dog whistles................nobody will hear them anyway. Seriously, any glaring artifacts would be heard on the Beats and anything else would be something .05% of the $1000+ headphone buying nerdy audiophiles would notice if they were specifically looking for it, if they even listened to your specific music genre.

Go to a music appreciation thread and play some of the poorly engineered crap that the Stax and hi end buyers are raving about........

On the other hand, Beats are the worlds most popular headphone, which is a good starting point, and if your mix sounds great on Beats it'll sound sensational on everything else, while if your mix sounds great on Utopias, you can only be sure it'll sound great on Utopias, because almost nothing sounds as good as Utopias......same philosophy as NS 10's.

This doesn't really make any sense to me, it seems you have it backwards.I know of no highly reputable engineer that has engineered/mixed for any big name artist who use non analytical equipment when mixing songs. For example, the NS10, almost all studio's you'll always see the NS10's accompanied by very high end studio monitors right next to them which cost several thousand dollars such as Genelec 1032A (or B). Im talking about the best of the best engineers have this set-up, David Pensado, Chris Lord Alge, Warren Huart, Tony Maserati,etc... They all have very high end monitors for mixing, and very low end monitors for referencing their mix that they did with their high end monitors.
 
That .05 is what's going to lead to you having muddy mixes that don't translate well on all systems, people might not hear the artifacts per say but they'll hear the lack of clarity. From the reviews that I've read about the Focal Utopia thus far, they seem like very flat uncolored headphones were as the beats by dre is the polar opposite. Im pretty sure if you play crappy music on the Utopia it's going to sound like crap (if the headphones are truly flat/uncolored).
 
Also, the Focal Grande Utopia III EM are used by world renowned mastering houses, if the logic of having crappy gear to mix on would produce better results then why aren't the best of the best doing this?