[Edoardo]

Quote:

 
I tested heaps of crappily mastered and compressed 'disco music' and it's still possible(I use that term loosely) to spot the differences. I've never been to a concert either.
 
It would be nice to see some of your ABX test results with different genres, you might be able to help crack down on the "source matters" stance on lossless v mp3. If the differences are perfectly audible, then it should take no longer than 3 minutes for something like 15 trials.

Actually, I must admit I've never tested 'disco' music that seriously. I shall give it a try too 

 
What impressed me most was a test I attended a couple of weeks ago... Because it was made with speakers and not with headphones! On symphonic material, though. 

 

[Edoardo]

Quote:

 
Since MP3 algorithms mostly cut high frequencies (20khz and beyond) it actually makes more sense to use a track with a lot of treble.
 
My ABX reference track is Justice's Let There Be Light which is a LOUD, COMPRESSED track. However I can still distinguish V0 from flac with it.
 
But still, flac is dumb for listening to. Everyone says storage is cheap but I fell like it's just clutter.
 
 

mp3 compression is far more sophisticated and invasive. 
 
You can perceive it as a loss of soundstage, a cut in dynamics and a cut relatively higher frequencies - but not that high! - because it will surely cut the instruments' harmonics somehow.
 
Then... If you are happy with Mp3s, ok, it's fine! but we're here to squeeze the most from our listening systems, aren't we?
 
 
 
 

 

[Brooko]

Edoardo - what method are you using for testing - just curious .....

 

[Edoardo]

Since I use Linux, I've never found an ABX tester.
 
Therefore I have to build a 10to20-track playlist made of 2 or 3 versions of the same track, hide the titles, put the player on shuffle mode, and switch the computer monitor off.
 
But... Really, what's the point in asking such a question?

 

[Brooko]

Just wondering really.  If you are interested in being able to do it easily - foobar runs very well under wine (I use Debian Sid 64b) - and you can run the abx plugin.  Allows you to level match as well.
 
I was reading through the thread - and while I know a lot of people are incredulous that some people can't spot the differences - but I've also found that a lot of people have never blind tested properly.  Foobar allows you to do it easily - and running linux is no barrier.
 
I personally have tested with jazz, classical, and classic rock - 256aac vs flac.  PC > coax > NFB-12 (with 8 x apodising filter for best resolution) > DT880.  I couldn't reliably tell the difference.  Mind you my age (44) may have counted against me - but at least I actually know for myself - makes it a lot easier to manage my library.  I used CD rips with EAC, ripped to FLAC at level 5 - then transcoded to latest aac using high quality mode on dBPoweramp.
 
Saying above - I still rip everything to FLAC, and I only buy lossless (hd-tracks etc).  I have plenty of disk space, and it means I never have to transcode lossy/lossy.  For my own portable listening, I use 256aac, for the kids I use 192 mp3, at home I use lossless straight from the library.
 
Thanks to people like DeadlyLover - I know that with the right gear, some people can spot the difference between hq loss and lossless - but I've also found (from my time here) that a lot of people who claim to be able to tell the difference have never tested properly.  I have no issues with it - ignorance is bliss for a lot of people.  Me - I wanted to know.  For my purpose, I'm totally OK with it.  Just means I have more room on the Touch and iPhone4.
 
All I'd suggest is that the number who can tell the difference is smaller than you think.  Past polls on head-fi have confirmed this.  You must be one of the few who can tell - and more power to you.  But just because others can't - it's not necessarily their music chain or their set-up.
 
Anyway - good thread.  Try foobar on wine when you get some time.  It runs really well, and is very configurable!  I can even run dolby hph - which is kind of cool to play around with for spatial effects once ina  while.  The number of plugins is amazing.

 

[ROBSCIX]

 
@Brooko, If you want to get into effect with Foobar, get yourself a VST wrapper and it will open a while new world of high end DSP to experiment with if you are into such things. Graphic Eq's Parametric EQ's, filters, tube modellers..the list goes on and on.
 
On the subject, I am a proponent of lossless. 
I would find it foolish to build a high end system to hear music in the best quality and then run degraded media through it. 
However, to each their own.  Aslong as you are enjoying your music...it is your ears, so enjoy!

 

[Brooko]

Quote:

 
@Brooko, If you want to get into effect with Foobar, get yourself a VST wrapper and it will open a while new world of high end DSP to experiment with if you are into such things. Graphic Eq's Parametric EQ's, filters, tube modellers..the list goes on and on.
 
On the subject, I am a proponent of lossless. 
I would find it foolish to build a high end system to hear music in the best quality and then run degraded media through it. 
However, to each their own.  Aslong as you are enjoying your music...it is your ears, so enjoy!

Oh I agree on the home rig - my library is all in lossless anyway.  But for my portable (iPod Touch4 or iPhone4) + iem's of choice, or even iP4 > LOD > PortaTube > HD600, I see little point in limiting myself to around 30 Gb of lossless.  For me personally - and I know I can't tell the difference so there is peace of mind here as well - on the portable I just go aac256.  Best of both worlds for my hearing - great quality and 3 times the disk space

 
Thanks for the VST wrapper tip!  Will have to check it out over the weekend.
 

 

[ROBSCIX]

Quote:

Oh I agree on the home rig - my library is all in lossless anyway.  But for my portable (iPod Touch4 or iPhone4) + iem's of choice, or even iP4 > LOD > PortaTube > HD600, I see little point in limiting myself to around 30 Gb of lossless.  For me personally - and I know I can't tell the difference so there is peace of mind here as well - on the portable I just go aac256.  Best of both worlds for my hearing - great quality and 3 times the disk space

 
Thanks for the VST wrapper tip!  Will have to check it out over the weekend.
 

I am speaking about home rigs....I only use Lossless audio, nothing less.
 
VST will open up a new world of DSP for Foobar to experiment with if you are interested.
They are software based DSP effects that work within a Host application, usually recording applications.
The wrapper allows Foobar to access the DSP's I/O and use the effect.
 
 
 

 

[Edoardo]

Quote:

 
 
I personally have tested with jazz, classical, and classic rock - 256aac vs flac.  PC > coax > NFB-12 (with 8 x apodising filter for best resolution) > DT880.  I couldn't reliably tell the difference.  Mind you my age (44) may have counted against me 

 
In my experience, such age is no issue here.
 
True is that middle age humans can't hear frequencies over 15 or 16 KHz averagely, but instruments' harmonics are also well below that range, (a soprano's voice doesn't go upper than 1,500 Hz fundamentally, and a violin does not reach the 4,000 Hz!) and I know Maestros who can name the note in which you sneeze, or that can tune a piano without any help who are well beyond their thirties... 
 
On instruments' harmonics 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/582354/guide-compressed-uncompressed-and-hd-what-to-look-for-when-comparing-various-formats#post_7934160
 
Can you hear the differences between a playback and a concert in the same room? Therefore you can hear also everything else.
 
 
Question: does the reliability of your "spots" depend on the genre you are listening to?
 
Then... Are you sure that the SPDIF out of your PC is not an issue? Some built-ins can be crappy. 
 
I'm also about to change what's in my iPod from ALAC to AAC because even if the iPod could be able to pass the difference, the listening environment would not allow me to appreciate that.

 
 
Thanks but I prefer not to use wine for audio playback. never tested anything here, it's just about comfort. 

 

[AdamClim]

I am changing the topic here, but other than HDtracks.com , what are other good resources of FLAC/lossless files?
 
Thanks

 

[Brooko]

Thanks for the info on harmonics - defintiely helpful.
 
Quote:

Can you hear the differences between a playback and a concert in the same room? Therefore you can hear also everything else.

 
Haven't ever been in the position to try it - but have been to plenty of live performances - so would like to think that (in the same room) I could tell the difference.
 
 
Quote:

Question: does the reliability of your "spots" depend on the genre you are listening to?

 
No - I tried it over a wide range - Jazz, Classical, Rock, Folk.  I wanted to be sure - and I was glad that I did. 
 
Quote:

Then... Are you sure that the SPDIF out of your PC is not an issue? Some built-ins can be crappy.

 
I tried with both USB and SPDIF, and I can detect no issues.  It's a high quality board - and the SPDIF is just delivering digital signal - not analogue - so how could it be sub-par?  I'm going to an external DAC based on the Wolfson WM8741 which is highly regarded.
 
 
Quote:

I'm also about to change what's in my iPod from ALAC to AAC because even if the iPod could be able to pass the difference, the listening environment would not allow me to appreciate that.

 
Agree.  I'd love a higher capacity player than my current 32Gb - but given the quality of AAC, I find it perfectly accpetable from a portable and the extra space savings make it worth it. 
 
Quote:

Thanks but I prefer not to use wine for audio playback. never tested anything here, it's just about comfort.

 
No problem - at least you know the tools are easily available if you need them.  The beauty of foobar is that it automatically matches the volume level, handles the randomisation, and produces a report that gives you the exact probability that you are guessing.  I've found it very enlightening.  Again I go back to the testing done (various threads on head-fi) - a lot of people claim to be able to differentiate (you get a lot of 'night and day' comments) - but when asked to back it up with reports (like foobar's), the actual number that can differentiate is for the most part very small.  The biggest issue is getting people to actually do the test properly.  Sometimes (and I'm not including you in this - OK) ignorance is bliss.  I preferred to at least know my limits which is why I did the test properly.  It was enlightening for me.
 
Again from your responses to 'Sterling1' - it might help to understand that from the feedback we know from head-fi where the tests hhave actually been done, you're actually in the minority by being able to successfully differentiate.

 

[Edoardo]

Quote:

I am changing the topic here, but other than HDtracks.com , what are other good resources of FLAC/lossless files?
 
Thanks

DG - Deutsche Grammophon - sells their FLAC downloads via their official site.
 
Con 1
They are in 16/44.1
 
Pro 1
FLAC file is just the master file sampled at 16/44.1, far better then a CD rip.
 
Con 2
Not a bargain
 
Pro 2
Well, no new release is. Recording an orchestra like DG can do costs hundreds of thousands of Euros, and the classical one is a niche.

 

[Edoardo]

Quote:

Thanks for the info on harmonics - defintiely helpful.
 
 

You are very welcome - I spent an hour for finding such a graph already drawn!
 
 
 

Again from your responses to 'Sterling1' - it might help to understand that from the feedback we know from head-fi where the tests hhave actually been done, you're actually in the minority by being able to successfully differentiate.
 

 
I definitely have to try to install Windows somewhere and try this foobar tool anti-hoax tool!!! 

 
 
If it is a minority, then it's not a minority of chosen by the Gods... I mean... I've just spent a lot of time listening to few real instruments, playing and playing along with them... My hearing skills are nothing special, it's that maybe, I've somehow been used to pay attention to certain little things.
 
From the feedbacks I've got from Head-Fi, half of the community listens to a variety of electronica subgenres. With those, who could not tell anything... too little dynamics, No little things to pay attention - at least, not the ones I've been used to - both in FLAC and in real life to say anything... Moreover, even rock bands who make good music have been remastered increasingly worse... So... Nowadays we find quality recordings almost only in unplugged/classical music, and for the niche who attends that kind of concerts... It's a sad thing... But it's no coincidence to me!
 

 

[lee730]

Quote:

You are very welcome - I spent an hour for finding such a graph already drawn!
 
 
 
 
I definitely have to try to install Windows somewhere and try this foobar tool anti-hoax tool!!! 

 
 
If it is a minority, then it's not a minority of chosen by the Gods... I mean... I've just spent a lot of time listening to few real instruments, playing and playing along with them... My hearing skills are nothing special, it's that maybe, I've somehow been used to pay attention to certain little things.
 
From the feedbacks I've got from Head-Fi, half of the community listens to a variety of electronica subgenres. With those, who could not tell anything... too little dynamics, No little things to pay attention - at least, not the ones I've been used to - both in FLAC and in real life to say anything... Moreover, even rock bands who make good music have been remastered increasingly worse... So... Nowadays we find quality recordings almost only in unplugged/classical music, and for the niche who attends that kind of concerts... It's a sad thing... But it's no coincidence to me!
 

So you feel quality is going down on current releases in general? What a sad day in music history, and I thought it was just we're lacking real talent unlike the stars of yesteryear.

 

 

[sterling1]

Quote:

Just want to say to everyone that hasn't tried FLAC to do yourself the favor and do it NOW.

I have finally started to convert my collection and even on my sr-60 and move I can notice a huge difference.

Can't wait to get my ms2i !!!

Back to the OP's suggestion. I get flac files from HDtracks. It's the only way their 24/96 files are delivered. I convert these to ALAC with DPpoweramp and place these in my iTunes library. I have no complaint. These files sound as I would expect them to sound; but, 256k downloads from iTunes satisfy me too. In the music reproduction chain I find  stereo to be what precludes the life like experience. Give me a 64 speaker  sound stage and Dolby Digital 64.2.