FLAC vs. WAV
Sep 14, 2010 at 1:12 PM Post #16 of 65
Thanks but I currently don't need such a device, the people above were cited as an example.
Storage is cheap, but there is still a need for compression for music, especially when mobility has to be taken into account, that was the only point I sought to make.
 
Not to mention the metadata thing that some people find useful.
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Sep 14, 2010 at 1:48 PM Post #17 of 65
And, you can't forget the entertainment factor.
 
Most old guys don't do the entertainment thing.  That's why they sit around pointing and watching everybody else.
 
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Sep 14, 2010 at 2:30 PM Post #18 of 65


Quote:
I just listen to music.  Forgive my simplicity as I simply bring Windows Media Player up with all the metadata and options, right there for me to choose from.


 
I’m afraid this is not true.
When WMP rips a CD, it writes a few tags in the WAV.
You can edit what you want, what you see on the screen is the Library (the database) not the actual tags in the data.
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/WMP/WAV.htm
 
You can easily check this.
Move a WAV to another computer
Start WMP
You probably see very little left of your meta data.

 
 
Sep 14, 2010 at 2:49 PM Post #19 of 65
Quote:
There are some who believe so.
I look at this through the eyes of a software developer.  Someone who knows what programming code does, what operating systems do, and the basics of what the hardware side of computers does.  To me there is no difference between FLAC and WAV.  What gets spit out by the audio processing code to decode either format is exactly the same.  If what is spit out is the same it will sound the same.

  1. Play a WAV and a FLAC and record the SPDIF out
  2. Load both recordings in an audio editor, time align and subtract the 2 tracks.
  3. You end up with a track with zero’s only.
 
B.t.w. this has been done recently to test differences between iTunes and Amarra (playing of course both recordings at the same and native sample rate).
This is probably the most convincing test as the SPDIF out is what goes into the DAC.

Yes indeed the same track ripped to FLAC and to WAV are bit identical at the output stage.
 
We all know that PCM audio consist out of 2 components, a sample and a time step.
[size=medium]A sample where the bits are mangled or a sample presented to early or to late to the DAC (jitter) will have its impact on sound quality.[/size]
Any comparison of possible differences e.g. between audio formats should take both aspects into account. Any conclusion based on or the bits or the timing only leaves half of the phenomenon out of the equation.
 
DA conversion is a delicate process.
Claims about the
audible threshold of jitter varies but we probably talk nano or even pico seconds.
I think it is perfectly possible that
electrical activity going on inside a PC disturbs the clock of the sound card so maps itself into sample rate jitter.
Increased system activity will decrease the sound quality.
This is pretty much like having a video card and the more system activity, the more your screen starts to blur!
One might argue that if sound quality fluctuates with system load, this indicates a design flaw.
As a consequence, on a well designed system you won’t hear any difference and on the ones with a crappy sound card, you do.

 
What do we need?
Somebody with that bloody expensive gear able to measure the jitter on the digital out when playing WAV or FLAC.

 
Sep 14, 2010 at 2:53 PM Post #20 of 65


Quote:
If you really want to keep it simple, do what this old man does; pre-set iTunes to rip to lossless any audio disk put in my computer, then automatically reject it when finished. It doesn't get any simpler.
 
P


exactly! Since lossless files take too much space , i finally transfer  all albums to a DVD and store it in a safe place and make CDs out of it whenever i want.
My suggestion is never store any music files in computer, never know when it crashes !
 
Sep 14, 2010 at 8:22 PM Post #21 of 65
I wrote:
 
Forgive my simplicity as I simply bring Windows Media Player up with all the metadata and options, right there for me to choose from.
 
Roseval wrote:
 
I’m afraid this is not true.
When WMP rips a CD, it writes a few tags in the WAV.
You can edit what you want, what you see on the screen is the Library (the database) not the actual tags in the data.
 
Roseval linked to:
 
If you move the WAV's from your local HD to a another computer probably all meta information will be lost as it is stored in the library only.
 
Now you're doing what I'm writing about, complicating things.  I rip to the computer and it stays there, along with all the tags in the library.
 
???
 
Sep 14, 2010 at 9:32 PM Post #23 of 65
The extra metadata you can store in FLAC is extremely useful. If you have a larger music collection, then it becomes easier to search for certain 'subcategories'. For example, you can search by orchestra, conductor, soloist, year, genre, etc. With WAV, you're limited in your ability to expand and manage your collection efficiently, IMO.
 
Sep 14, 2010 at 9:41 PM Post #24 of 65
Well, if you change computers (standard life expectancy between 2 and 5 years) or simply has a virus needing a reformat, or want to change the software player, you'll run into major problems for your tags.
 
Quote:
I wrote:
 
Forgive my simplicity as I simply bring Windows Media Player up with all the metadata and options, right there for me to choose from.
 
Roseval wrote:
 
I’m afraid this is not true.
When WMP rips a CD, it writes a few tags in the WAV.
You can edit what you want, what you see on the screen is the Library (the database) not the actual tags in the data.
 
Roseval linked to:
 
If you move the WAV's from your local HD to a another computer probably all meta information will be lost as it is stored in the library only.
 
Now you're doing what I'm writing about, complicating things.  I rip to the computer and it stays there, along with all the tags in the library.
 
???




 
Sep 14, 2010 at 9:41 PM Post #25 of 65
KnightK wrote:
 
If you have a larger music collection, then it becomes easier to search for certain 'subcategories'.
 
With WAV, you're limited in your ability to expand and manage your collection efficiently, IMO.
 
I'm getting it.  I'm a keep it simple kind of guy and have no need for all these search tags as others do.
 
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Sep 14, 2010 at 9:52 PM Post #26 of 65
khaos974 wrote:
 
Well, if you change computers (standard life expectancy between 2 and 5 years) or simply has a virus needing a reformat, or want to change the software player, you'll run into major problems for your tags.
 
FWIW, I run four HDD's and use Norton "Ghost" for backup so I have a system based upon disconnected redundancy.  Of course, no guarantees.  I'm sure my simplicity will bite me in the butt as you suggest.
 
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Me?  I figure that we're just a bunch of guys hanging around a computer monitor with some tunes on our computer, sharing audio war stories.  I haven't a clue how serious folks take this hobby other than it's something to do between job assignments, exercise and family commitments.  The point, if the system crashes and I can't revive it, I buy a whole new system and get to re-rip the entire library, complete with tags.
 
???
 
Sep 14, 2010 at 10:21 PM Post #28 of 65
It's actually not as bad as I make it, as long as you get the files back, you don't rave to re-rip, just re-tag (ie have WMP look up the albums once again), which is less time consuming.
IMHO, Flac is more convenient without being more complicated, but if wav suits your needs, good for you.
 
Sep 14, 2010 at 10:23 PM Post #29 of 65


Quote:
  DA conversion is a delicate process.
Claims about the
audible threshold of jitter varies but we probably talk nano or even pico seconds.
I think it is perfectly possible that
electrical activity going on inside a PC disturbs the clock of the sound card so maps itself into sample rate jitter.
Increased system activity will decrease the sound quality.
This is pretty much like having a video card and the more system activity, the more your screen starts to blur!
One might argue that if sound quality fluctuates with system load, this indicates a design flaw.
As a consequence, on a well designed system you won’t hear any difference and on the ones with a crappy sound card, you do.

 
What do we need?
Somebody with that bloody expensive gear able to measure the jitter on the digital out when playing WAV or FLAC.


All that is after the FLAC decoding and I don't see how it could be affected by the extra effort needed to decode the FLAC.
 
This is how I view it as a software engineering exercise:
You have buffer in RAM that is implemented as some form of a queue data structure.  A queue is a First In First Out type of structure.  It's like waiting in line at the bank.  The buffer would hold PCM sample data.  It could be any size we want, but lets just make it big enough so it can hold a maximum of 5 seconds of audio.
 
We have one thread that reads the file from the disk, decodes the data to raw PCM, and puts that data in the queue (the buffer).  The thread monitors the buffer and fills it as needed.  If the file is an MP3 it decodes the MP3 to PCM.  If the file is FLAC it decodes the FLAC file to PCM.  If the file is WAV it decodes the WAV to PCM.
 
We have another thread that takes data from the buffer and plays it.  It plays whatever is in the buffer till the user hits pause, stop, or skip.
 
So we've got two threads going.  One decodes the audio and fills the buffer with PCM data.  The other thread plays PCM data from the buffer.
 
The thread reading files has an easy job.  It is going to be idle much of the time even when processing FLAC or APE or MP3.  It isn't too time sensitive.  All it has to do is keep up with playback and fill the queue.  It can fill the buffer, be lazy for a few seconds, then fill the buffer again.  Easy.
 
The playback thread is where the time critical stuff is.  That thread can't be lazy.  It needs to be right on the ball.  It can't get delayed.  It has to stream data in real-time.  Any delay can cause an audible glitch.  This thread is where the brains and the critical processing in the audio player will be.  If the the software is capable of causing added jitter in the data or cause playback problems this is the thread that would be at fault.
 
So two threads.  One that reads, converts, and fills the buffer.  It has an easy job.  Not much it could do to cause jitter or other artifacts other than causing reads from the hard drive.  The other thread is where the critical processing is for playback.
 
Given a setup like that I don't see how the processing to convert FLAC to PCM vs. WAV could have any effect on the audio quality at all.  The thread that does that work is separate and that thread has a comparatively very easy job and nothing overly time critical.
 
The playback thread is where the time critical stuff is.  And that thread wouldn't even need to know whether the PCM data that it is playing came from an MP3, WAV, FLAC, APE, AAC, or some other format.  All it does is see PCM data in the buffer and play it.  It doesn't need to know where that PCM data came from.  As far as the playback thread is concerned there is no difference between FLAC, MP3, and WAV.  No difference.
 
That's a basic simplified software view of audio playback.  FLAC and WAV get treated the same.
 
As for measuring the jitter with uber-expensive gear.  That would be an interesting experiment.  I wonder just how much the application code can affect jitter as long as the application level code is being at least reasonably competent about playback.  I'd think that the driver level and OS level code would be more likely to do things that ultimately affect jitter.  Driver and kernel code doing things like changing CPU speed and power on the fly, blocking application threads during interrupt processing, background disc reads, network drivers being CPU and interrupt time hogs, things like that.  Things that aren't in direct control of the application.
 
Sep 14, 2010 at 10:50 PM Post #30 of 65
Kahos974 wrote:
 
IMHO, Flac is more convenient without being more complicated,....
 
Not to knock FLAC but to me, it's more to learn that I'm not going use.  If you learn and don't use it like my situation, short term memory throws the stored information away.  That's why we label boxes we put in storage.
 
"What's in the box?"
 
"I don't know."
 
"Didn't you label it?"
 
"What for?"
 
"Never mind."
 
Sounds like you guys use it, so it's a good thing to know about.
 
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