[Edward Ng]

Good day, all! I was doing a bit of research here and noticed that there are at least five portable players on the market that can handle lossless formats. From what I can tell, they are the:

1) Rio Karma 20
2) iRiver iHP-120/140
3) Apple iPod
4) Creative Zen Touch
5) iAudio M3

My preferable format is either Monkey's Audio or FLAC, as half my library is FLAC and half my library is Monkey's Audio; if the player supports either format, I need only rerip half my archive, rather than the the entire thing.

However, I did notice that the latest firmware for iAudio M3 only officially supports FLAC levels 0, 1 and 2. I'm positive I used the maximum compression (8?); will the M3 still play my files? If not, I'd end up having to rerip even my FLACs just for it! How about Rio Karma 20? I haven't been able to find if there are any compression level limitations for its FLAC support.

If I have to go with a format other than those two, I need to know if there's any audio player other than iTunes that supports Apple Lossless on PC. Right now, I use foobar2000 and I don't think it supports Apple Lossless (somebody please correct me if I'm wrong there). I don't like iTunes because it doesn't seem to have support for Kernel Streaming or ASIO output, or at least it cannot bypass Kmixer (again, please correct me if I'm wrong on that as well). While WAVE would certainly work, that'd really cut down on the amount of hard drive space I have all around, so I'd like to avoid WAVE if possible.

Another highly important item is if the player supports a standard line-out; I will be using a HeadRoom BitHead and Etymotic ER-4S, and I'd much prefer to use the player's line-out if possible, rather than the headphone out. I know the iPod supports this via an aftermarket cable; what about the other players I listed? It has to remain on the portable side, so carrying the dock would be a real hassle unless it's really, really small and all cables are detachable from it.

-Ed

 

[breez]

You don't need to rerip your CDs, just transcode the existing FLACs/APEs (foobar does this nicely).

 

[Edward Ng]

Quote:

Originally Posted by breez You don't need to rerip your CDs, just transcode the existing FLACs/APEs (foobar does this nicely).

Great; so that works for transcoding from APE/FLAC L8 to FLAC L2...

Can it transcode to Apple Lossless?

Anyone know how to get foobar2000 to play ALAC? I've been trying to find it with the search function, but I can't find it.

-Ed

 

[Head Creep]

I think Apple Lossless is a propietary codec, which would mean using iTunes. You can transcode FLAC to WAV in your program of choice, open up iTunes and encode the WAVs to ALAC.

As to whether or not foobar can play ALAC, you can do a search at foobar's forums, since somebody's probably already asked there.

 

[drdnl]

Oh, and the M3 can handle quality levels about 2 easily, all my flac's are at 4, only at 8 have users reported problems (some minor skipping and one downright stop). 4-6 should be fine, 7-8 are borderline, and not really worth it imho, you lose hours of batterylife for a 2% filesize difference....

 

[Edward Ng]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdnl Oh, and the M3 can handle quality levels about 2 easily, all my flac's are at 4, only at 8 have users reported problems (some minor skipping and one downright stop). 4-6 should be fine, 7-8 are borderline, and not really worth it imho, you lose hours of batterylife for a 2% filesize difference....

Great! So I could just transcode from L8 over to L4 quite easily...

What other known problems are there with the iAudio M3? I quite like the looks of it; does it have an unamplified line out per chance?

Thanks for that info!

-Ed

EDIT: What; is it just me, or does the guy in the etysmile have his Ety's worn backwards (left in right ear, right in left ear)?!?

 

[drdnl]

After a fw update to fix at least partially the gaps between songs (its now about 1/10th of a second, like a cd skipping 1 beat) there was a problem with the player gathering data too well, by making sure that it had music in its memory at all times sometimes it'd start skipping if for example you were walking fast whilst it was trying to load up data.

Also, there were bugs with certain .ogg files and .mp3's with similar skipping, both were fixed two weeks later. The firmware updates on this thing are amazing, almost every 2/3 weeks there's an update, sometimes very impressive ones, like aforementioned FLAC

Oh, and the sound is excellent, especially on my ety's with a little eq.

And i'm not sure, i'm not really into the line-out thing but: the line-out volume changes if you change the player volume, not as much as with the regular headphone out but there's a change, i think this is not a 'true' lineout then

 

[Edward Ng]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdnl After a fw update to fix at least partially the gaps between songs (its now about 1/10th of a second, like a cd skipping 1 beat) there was a problem with the player gathering data too well, by making sure that it had music in its memory at all times sometimes it'd start skipping if for example you were walking fast whilst it was trying to load up data. Also, there were bugs with certain .ogg files and .mp3's with similar skipping, both were fixed two weeks later. The firmware updates on this thing are amazing, almost every 2/3 weeks there's an update, sometimes very impressive ones, like aforementioned FLAC Oh, and the sound is excellent, especially on my ety's with a little eq. And i'm not sure, i'm not really into the line-out thing but: the line-out volume changes if you change the player volume, not as much as with the regular headphone out but there's a change, i think this is not a 'true' lineout then

So...the gain control still affects the line-out, but it is non-amplified (I guess)? Hmm...

I did a little snooping and noticed that there is a, "sub-pack," for it. Does the sub-pack work without AC plugged in (i.e. operational when not actively powered from a wall outlet)? If it does, I can carry the player with the sub-pack attached and use it for line-out...

What's going to be the component that introduces the most noise/colorization, the gain stage, or the amplification stage? If it's the amplification stage, then bypassing it while leaving the gain control active is okay, but if it's the gain stage, then the line-out won't be significantly cleaner/more natural than the regular headphone out, no?

Thanks for your help so far, everyone! I'm so glad I came to you guys!

-Ed

 

[xantus]

the "sub pack" sounds bigger than it actually is. its a little plastic dock about the size of a CompactFlash card that plugs into the port at the bottom of the m3. it has ports for AC, usb, line in / out. so its really just a portable cradle. I actually only use the pack because I dont have to take the case off to plug it in.

edit: in case it wasn't clear. yes, you can use line in / out without AC.

 

[Edward Ng]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xantus the "sub pack" sounds bigger than it actually is. its a little plastic dock about the size of a CompactFlash card that plugs into the port at the bottom of the m3. it has ports for AC, usb, line in / out. so its really just a portable cradle. I actually only use the pack because I dont have to take the case off to plug it in. edit: in case it wasn't clear. yes, you can use line in / out without AC.

Oh wow; this thing is becoming more appealing now... Has anyone reported any particular issues with this item? I simply don't know much about Jetaudio or the reliability of their products, and the thing isn't cheap by any measure, so I don't want to go diving into a purchase without having an idea what to expect ahead of time.

I'm still concerned over the quality of the output from its, "line-out," as well. This is not a worry I have with iPod+SiK din.

-Ed

 

[bangraman]

The only thing I could say is that the 'sub pack' contact area is much less than the iPod equivalent. This means that if the connector is overstressed, there are more forces concentrated along a narrower area, and it wasn't as well put together as for example a Sony connector design (which also tends to be fairly compact). Actually I dont have to tippy toe around this: The connector assembly is pretty fragile. In transit, if you're going to have it connected you'll need to make sure that the player is secure with no load being put on the connector assembly through bag deformation or IC movement. As a separate, occasionally deployed item (i.e. I don't use these players amped, but would need the USB io functionality on the move) I felt I could carry the 'sub pack' + USB cable without problems compared to carrying a USB cable for the iHP (and worrying about power since the H1xx doesn't charge through the USB port) or the Apple USB cable for the 4G iPod / Mini.


In terms of usage practicality the iAudio probably does better as an amped player as all the functions are remote-based so you aren't faced with a spaghetti junction of cables when you take out the player to cue up a new album. Line Out quality on the iAudio is debatable. I think it's perfectly usable, but not the best... and if you are going to go to all the trouble of amping it, why pick anything but the best? Well, I suppose because the iAudio's more practical to use amped... but if you're not using the best, then you're giving up elements of the sound in favour of practicality and that invalidates many of the perceived advantages of amping in the first place... (discuss round and round in circles

)

 

[Edward Ng]

So it comes back to Karma vs. iPod...

In reality, just iPod. Who wants to carry the Karma's dock around with it?!?

ALAC...what a pain...

 

[KenW]

Even the iPod will require an extra cable for the line out.

Is the NJB3 too big for your tastes/needs? You get the benefit of being able to swap hard drives and it has the line outs for use with amps built into the player. Right now, I'm seriously leaning that way. Unless Rio comes out with that Chroma and it meets the need, I'm down to the big/bulky NJB3 and the iPod(I can live with the cable if it means I can use the amp).

I was fired up about the M3L with that battery life and other features...especially the FLAC support but when I saw that connector, I quickly eliminated it. That thing looks like it would snap off if you sneezed. bangraman is right...it looks a bit too fragile for my tastes.

The search continues I suppose.

 

[Edward Ng]

The dock on that thing is so much bulkier than the SiK din, plus--the SiK din, being a thin, flexible cable, doesn't really change the shape of the iPod by much. The Karma, once attached to the dock, becomes a real oddity in your pocket or pouch, shaped not like a flat, regular shaped object, but something of a weird mushroom/boot shape, that doesn't conform well to cases or pouches.

Anyway, I got a great deal from someone I know; brand spanking new 4th Gen 40GB iPod for $300, so I'm going for it.

 

[Zoide]

How's the NJB3 interface? It doesn't look too scroll-friendly, especially if you have its huge capacity filled w/ songs...