Firewire 410 or Elite Pro + Questions?

[JaGWiRE]

Which do you guys think will be a better transport choice? I've narrowed it down to the two because I want something with a breakout box, and I want something that can output DD and DTS over coax or optical. I am wondering which will be the better transport (I will be using an zhalou or other dac in the future over optical most likely), and which will just be the better card overall with a nicer interface? Does anybody know if the 410 is compatiable in Linux? I also am leaning towards the 410 because I might get a macbook this summer, and it would be an excellent piece of equipment to throw in my bag for trips and stuff like that.

Oh, and my speakers are 5.1 (z-5500) and they have digital output, and regular 3.5mm 1/8" outputs (3 of them, orange black and green.) On the firewire 410 there is 4 unbalanced 1/4" jacks, can I use an adapter to make them into 1/8" and hook my speakers up and get full analogue 5.1?

 

[Sycraft]

Well, I had a Firewire 410, and ditched it for an X-Fi. However if you want portability, you need to go with the Firewire 410. The fact that it's Firewire aside, the X-Fi's breakout box is massive. It's not like the Firewire 410 is small, but really, the Elite Pro has a huge breakout box.

The X-Fi offers more flexability in general, the Firewire doesn't have good support for things like games, though maybe you don't care. As for connectors, the X-Fi has better connectors for what you want but yes, you can get adapters/cables that'll do what you need for your setup. Basically you just take 2x 1/4" TS to 1x 1/8" TRS.

I don't believe the Firewire 410 has any Linux drivers. The rule for Linux support is keep it old and keep it common. Because Linux is a minority OS, and because they change their kernel ABI with every minor revision, many companies offer little to no Linux support. You generally want to stick to more popular consumer cards to find support.

 

[JaGWiRE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sycraft Well, I had a Firewire 410, and ditched it for an X-Fi. However if you want portability, you need to go with the Firewire 410. The fact that it's Firewire aside, the X-Fi's breakout box is massive. It's not like the Firewire 410 is small, but really, the Elite Pro has a huge breakout box. The X-Fi offers more flexability in general, the Firewire doesn't have good support for things like games, though maybe you don't care. As for connectors, the X-Fi has better connectors for what you want but yes, you can get adapters/cables that'll do what you need for your setup. Basically you just take 2x 1/4" TS to 1x 1/8" TRS. I don't believe the Firewire 410 has any Linux drivers. The rule for Linux support is keep it old and keep it common. Because Linux is a minority OS, and because they change their kernel ABI with every minor revision, many companies offer little to no Linux support. You generally want to stick to more popular consumer cards to find support.

TS? TRS? I have an xtrememusic now, had an revolution 7.1 which was mediocore. I don't really like the xtrememusic. I am interested in maybe getting into electronic audio creation, I guess the firewire is better for that. What are the 2 firewire ports for (you only need one)? How does it work with foobar and it as a transport? Like can you switch between stuff, like whether to output to optical or coaxail? How about adjusting volumes for the 1/4" ports and the headphone ports on different knobs? Can I get three 1/4" female to 1/8" male adapters and hook them up to 3 ports and hook up my speakers to get 5.1, and then run them over coax for DD/DTS? I want some screenshots of the software to see what I can adjust, etc etc, but I don't seem to find anything anywhere. Can you assign the knobs to control whatever you want?

I think the m-audio might have Linux support, the x-fi's don't and probably won't.

 

[Sycraft]

TS = Tip, sleeve. Also called 2-pole, or 2 connector. It has a hot (tip) and ground (sleeve) connection. A monaural, unbalanced connector in audio. TRS = Tip, ring, sleeve, also called 3-pole. It has two hot connections (tip and ring) and one common ground (sleeve). Used for either a monaural balanced conenction or a stereo unbalanced connection.

The second firewire port is so you can chain another device off of the soundcard.

I don't use Foobar, I find Winamp superior. It works fine with Winamp, as it does with every program I've thrown at it which includes, but is not limited to Sony Vegas, Steinberg Cubase, Cakewalk Sonar, and Native Instruments Kontakt.

Output to optical and coxial is joined. Any digital output is sent to both. You can, however, internally route signals as you please. It has virtual outs that the OS talks to which can be routed in any ocnfiguration to the physical outs with the mixer. The X-Fi functions in the same way in audio creation mode.

The two headphone knobs control only the volume of their respective ports. They are analogue potentiometres. The one general purpose control knob can be assigned to a number of functions, but it works very poorly in my experience.

You can hook your speakers up, but not with what you think. You need something with an 1/8" TRS connection on one end, to hook to your speakers and two 1/4" TS connections on the other end, to hook to the soudncard. Each port on the soundcard is only a single channel of output.

You can, in theory, so DTS/DD output over coax, I've never tried it, but there shouldn't be any problems.

I cannot provide screenshots of the Firewire, I dumped mine months ago. I can provide X=Fi screenshots, however there's no difference in versions. Teh Elite Pro just has better electropnics and external controls.

M-Audio lists the Firewire 410 as unsupported in Linux, given the length of time it has been out (over 2 years) it is safe to assume support is not forthcomming. The X-Fi is a possibility, Creative opens up some info to the community to the point there's support for the 10k1 and 10k2 chips, including hardware mixing. At this point, there's nothing offical.

Like I said for Linux: Old, and common.

 

[JaGWiRE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sycraft TS = Tip, sleeve. Also called 2-pole, or 2 connector. It has a hot (tip) and ground (sleeve) connection. A monaural, unbalanced connector in audio. TRS = Tip, ring, sleeve, also called 3-pole. It has two hot connections (tip and ring) and one common ground (sleeve). Used for either a monaural balanced conenction or a stereo unbalanced connection. The second firewire port is so you can chain another device off of the soundcard. I don't use Foobar, I find Winamp superior. It works fine with Winamp, as it does with every program I've thrown at it which includes, but is not limited to Sony Vegas, Steinberg Cubase, Cakewalk Sonar, and Native Instruments Kontakt. Output to optical and coxial is joined. Any digital output is sent to both. You can, however, internally route signals as you please. It has virtual outs that the OS talks to which can be routed in any ocnfiguration to the physical outs with the mixer. The X-Fi functions in the same way in audio creation mode. The two headphone knobs control only the volume of their respective ports. They are analogue potentiometres. The one general purpose control knob can be assigned to a number of functions, but it works very poorly in my experience. You can hook your speakers up, but not with what you think. You need something with an 1/8" TRS connection on one end, to hook to your speakers and two 1/4" TS connections on the other end, to hook to the soudncard. Each port on the soundcard is only a single channel of output. You can, in theory, so DTS/DD output over coax, I've never tried it, but there shouldn't be any problems. I cannot provide screenshots of the Firewire, I dumped mine months ago. I can provide X=Fi screenshots, however there's no difference in versions. Teh Elite Pro just has better electropnics and external controls. M-Audio lists the Firewire 410 as unsupported in Linux, given the length of time it has been out (over 2 years) it is safe to assume support is not forthcomming. The X-Fi is a possibility, Creative opens up some info to the community to the point there's support for the 10k1 and 10k2 chips, including hardware mixing. At this point, there's nothing offical. Like I said for Linux: Old, and common.

How can each port be a single channel, these are unbalanced? So in theory, I would need a dual 1/4" to single 1/8" adapter, and need to use 2 ports? Maybe you can link me to what I need. I am only curious if I can turn off digital output, and decide when to use it, etc etc. The elite pro is about twice the price here (I am buying used, and the m-audio can be found used for about $200 cad, vs the $350-400 for the x-fi elite pro.) I don't game, and I know the elite pro does have a better DSP, but that's useless as i'm not gaming.

 

[JaGWiRE]

Also, what would you say about a second card incase I ever do decide to game, like leaving my xtrememusic? I've had problems switching between two soundcards in the past (onboard ac'97 and revolution 7.1), but maybe there is a piece of software I can use to disable one and enable the other one on the go.

 

[Sycraft]

What do you mean how can each port be single channel? It's easy, just only have one electrical circut. You can have as many or as few as you like on a jack like that. In practise it's usually 1, 2 or 3. If there's only two connections, a tip and a sleeve, as there is with the M-Audio, it's a single connection. This is often the way it's done in pro audio gear, as it gives superior control over routing and you aren't always addressing things as stereo pairs.

Now TRS (3 connector) wires can be used for monaural balanced conenctions. In this case one leg carries the signal, another carries teh signal's inversion, with the third being a common ground. Also common in pro gear, however it doesn't matter as using a TS connector will cause teh device to unbalance itself in almost all cases.

So in your case you need a stereo to dual mono cable.

I don't know where to go to show you a demo, I purchase my cables of that type at a local pro shop, Rainbow Guitars. Any local pro audio shop ought to have what you need. What you want is stereo 1/8" to dual mono 1/4". They aren't that hard to find in pro shops as you aren't the first person to want to plug together consumer and pro gear.

You can turn the digital output on and off in so fasr as you can choose not to route audio to it. The way the M-Audio works is it enumerates it's outputs as a stereo pair for each analogue out, and a stereo pair for digital out (it also enumerates a multi-channel out for things like DVD playback). Those are virtual outs. Those virtual outs then feed in to a mixer in the card, controlled by the drivers. By default there's a 1:1 mapping virtual to physical. So if you send data to the 1/2 outs, it comes only form those. However you can change that. You can have it so when you send to 1/2, it leave 1/2 off, 3/4 output the signal at 100% and 5/6 output athe same thing at 50%.

So, by default, things only go out the S/PDIF channel if sent to the S/PDIF out. If you want to change that, or disengage it entirely, you do that in the mixer. The mixer also allows you to route physical inputs to physical outputs so you can monitor recordings indepandant of what your software is doing.

It's quite flexable as opposed to most consumer soundcards. It's really designed for a different kind of work.

 

[JaGWiRE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sycraft What do you mean how can each port be single channel? It's easy, just only have one electrical circut. You can have as many or as few as you like on a jack like that. In practise it's usually 1, 2 or 3. If there's only two connections, a tip and a sleeve, as there is with the M-Audio, it's a single connection. This is often the way it's done in pro audio gear, as it gives superior control over routing and you aren't always addressing things as stereo pairs. Now TRS (3 connector) wires can be used for monaural balanced conenctions. In this case one leg carries the signal, another carries teh signal's inversion, with the third being a common ground. Also common in pro gear, however it doesn't matter as using a TS connector will cause teh device to unbalance itself in almost all cases. So in your case you need a stereo to dual mono cable. I don't know where to go to show you a demo, I purchase my cables of that type at a local pro shop, Rainbow Guitars. Any local pro audio shop ought to have what you need. What you want is stereo 1/8" to dual mono 1/4". They aren't that hard to find in pro shops as you aren't the first person to want to plug together consumer and pro gear. You can turn the digital output on and off in so fasr as you can choose not to route audio to it. The way the M-Audio works is it enumerates it's outputs as a stereo pair for each analogue out, and a stereo pair for digital out (it also enumerates a multi-channel out for things like DVD playback). Those are virtual outs. Those virtual outs then feed in to a mixer in the card, controlled by the drivers. By default there's a 1:1 mapping virtual to physical. So if you send data to the 1/2 outs, it comes only form those. However you can change that. You can have it so when you send to 1/2, it leave 1/2 off, 3/4 output the signal at 100% and 5/6 output athe same thing at 50%. So, by default, things only go out the S/PDIF channel if sent to the S/PDIF out. If you want to change that, or disengage it entirely, you do that in the mixer. The mixer also allows you to route physical inputs to physical outputs so you can monitor recordings indepandant of what your software is doing. It's quite flexable as opposed to most consumer soundcards. It's really designed for a different kind of work.

Nice, I think I might get one, and keep my xtrememusic and switch between. I am sure for music it will be superb, and I am not the fan of the idea of spending a crapload of a money on an elite pro, this way I'll have something for my notebook or whatever in the future, should be great for meets...
I thought that was what you mean't. Two ends would be like the ends on a headphone (male 1/4"), and then one end would be on the other side as a female 1/8", correct? I'de have to use 3 of these to get 5.1, but in the software I'de be glad to mix it to 5.1? It actually makes a lot of sense to do each channel seperately now that you mention it, I just thought that was only known in balanced (balanced as two 1/4" or xlr outputs to get stereo.)

http://www.ramelectronics.net/assets...ers/35-476.jpg
It would be like that, but female 1/8", right? I will try the source cc (radioshack) later if I do get this card, I am guessing it is easier to get 1/4" to rca adapters, and get an dual male rca to female 1/8" or something though.

Oh, and what's a dandy chaise with the 2 firewire? Can you hook two computers up and have it working under 2 pcs (don't see how that's possible.)

 

[Sycraft]

The cable you have there is what you want. Plug the 1/8" end to your speakers, the 1/4"s to your Firewire.

By the way you are using balanced wrong. A balanced connection isn't one that is stereo, it's one that has two seperate electrical connections, with opposed signals. The idea is that any noise that comes in comes in to both signals equally. At the other end you invert them and add them, canceling all the noise. Works brilliantly, that's why you can have a mic run that's 100 feet long and despite the low signal level you still get little noise.

The reason for saisy chaining firewire devices is if you had something like a laptop with only 1 firewire out and you want to hook both a FW disk and the soundcard in it. You'd chain them together. No, you can't have two computers use ti at once, that's asking for a disaster.

 

[JaGWiRE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sycraft The cable you have there is what you want. Plug the 1/8" end to your speakers, the 1/4"s to your Firewire. By the way you are using balanced wrong. A balanced connection isn't one that is stereo, it's one that has two seperate electrical connections, with opposed signals. The idea is that any noise that comes in comes in to both signals equally. At the other end you invert them and add them, canceling all the noise. Works brilliantly, that's why you can have a mic run that's 100 feet long and despite the low signal level you still get little noise. The reason for saisy chaining firewire devices is if you had something like a laptop with only 1 firewire out and you want to hook both a FW disk and the soundcard in it. You'd chain them together. No, you can't have two computers use ti at once, that's asking for a disaster.

Alright, here's another question as I am kind of leaning towards the elite pro... Can I hook up the rca cables from my xbox 360 into my elite pros rca line input, and then re-direct them through optical into my DAC which will be connected to my headphone amp and then headphones?
Also, are the line inputs beside the headphone input on the elite pro regular line inputs, or are they just mic inputs? I ask because they x-fis have a flexijack port which can be line in, mic in or coaxail. Can I hook my headphones up the headphone jack, and then my xbox 360 into the line in jack beside it and have it go to my headphones?

 

[Sycraft]

Sure you can reroute inputs to the X-Fi's output in any mode. Just turn it on in the mixer. Both the front ports can be line or something else. One can be high impedance for guitars and such, the other can be preamped for mics. However their gain dials have a switch that turns them to normal line inputs.