[DimarzioMesaFan]

I have been doing a bit of research and basically decided on the ATH-MSR7 headphones, Fiio X1, and the Fiio E10k for my main setup. Obviously I'm on a budget but I can get the headphones for $100 new. I've seen nothing but high holy praise for the X1 but it has raised an interesting question. Why go for the X3? I understand the X1 is using a Texas Instrument chip but is the difference really that noticeable on something like the MSR7? I'm definitely leaning toward the X1 for the price and it would be a huge upgrade over anything I've got; however I'm curious as to whether the X3 would be worth the venture. 

 

[Tail]

  I have been doing a bit of research and basically decided on the ATH-MSR7 headphones, Fiio X1, and the Fiio E10k for my main setup. Obviously I'm on a budget but I can get the headphones for $100 new. I've seen nothing but high holy praise for the X1 but it has raised an interesting question. Why go for the X3? I understand the X1 is using a Texas Instrument chip but is the difference really that noticeable on something like the MSR7? I'm definitely leaning toward the X1 for the price and it would be a huge upgrade over anything I've got; however I'm curious as to whether the X3 would be worth the venture. 

First of all about this: "and it would be a huge upgrade over anything I've got". If you have a decent smartphone (some bit better Android or iPhone) difference between it and X1 is practically non existent, unless you don't get enough volume for example with iPhone, but your headphones are reasonably low impedance of 35 Ohm and again, not the most sensitive but sensitive enough 100 dB SPL. So you might not even benefit at all.
 
X3 has a lot more powerful output than X1 and that is the main difference, and it can be used as USB DAC unlike X1 (basically you use it as an external sound card for your PC, laptop or anything. So basically X3 has a bit more functionality and more powerful amp, but other than that sound itself is as good as X1 or any smartphone, differences are either non existent or extremely miserable, possibly not even able to be recognized without doing well set up volume matched blind test with switch. 
 
Since you are on a budget, if you get enough volume from your current source, without having distortions on high volumes and without having background noise, you might skip player completely without losing a thing, just saving couple of $. If you don't get enough volume, or you do have distortions or noise then you should look into the player, and X1 should be sufficient to drive your headphones to full potential (but so may be some smartphone you already have). 
 
Too many fairy tales around about the players and how they will open new horizons while that may not be the case at all, they just buy players for the sake of hobby. Anyways X3 is good if you have some harder to drive headphones or need USB DAC as well (like I do), but other than that X1 will give you max performance (again, maybe so will smartphone).

 

[DimarzioMesaFan]

Thanks for the reply. I have a very inexpensive smartphone with a lame dac. Even my last smartphone, which was fairly middle of the road, had difficulty giving the full potential of my v-moda lp² set; while on the desktop they sounded far better with a very mediocre onboard dac.

My intention is two-fold; having a dedicated music device for one, is something I very much miss. Secondly I would like to try some 24 bit music but I have nothing capable of playing it. So it sounds like the x1 is for me. I no longer have my 200ohm headphones so it should suffice.

I can't tell what dac is on my new phone but the next phone upgrade from it is a kinda ****ty Qualcomm dac with a lame amp.

From what I can tell the x1 should sound as good or better than my current desktop setup.

 

[KaminKevCrew]

For me, having the x3 or x5 (I currently own the x5ii) is a better value. It's not because of the "sound differences" or whatever, as I rarely pay enough attention to notice tiny details. It's about having a good USB dac that I can use with whatever I want. My phone runs lollipop right now, and I can use the x5 as a dac/amp with it, which makes it so that I can use things like Spotify with my phone, but I can use much better (and more power hungry) headphones. Also, I can use eq if I feel the need for it, which is quite nice. I do have to admit though, the fiio ui could seriously use a revamp. For the x1, it's fine I suppose, but for the x5, they need to fix that... Hopefully the x7 will be better. But I digress...

If you find that you ever want something better for you desktop, I would suggest the x3, because it doubles as a pretty high quality dac/amp for you desktop in addition to its mobile use, so you proverbially kill two birds with one stone. Up to you of course, and ymmv, that's just my experience with it.

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

 

[Tail]

I have a very inexpensive smartphone with a lame dac. Even my last smartphone, which was fairly middle of the road, had difficulty giving the full potential of my v-moda lp² set; while on the desktop they sounded far better with a very mediocre onboard dac.
 

Note that dac doesn't have anything to do with it, dac is very cheap and simple thing that only has one task, to convert digital to analog signal. People seem to give too much importance to it, but truth is that pretty much almost all nowadays dacs are sufficient and good. Most of them don't make any audible noise and all of them are sufficient to get highest dnr that your music have. There are some exceptions that are found in the worst cheap products but it's really a big nonsense for people to praise dac as some wonder so much. 
 
Problem with driving something is amplifier, that is the thing that is responsible for noise, distortions, not being able to drive certain headphones, not matching impedance, not having enough power for low sensitivity headphones. So it's amplifier inside that is problem, dac doesn't matter almost at all (as long as it is not complete crap, which it isn't in most of today's stuff that have D/A)
 
24 bit music is complete hoax without it being a matter of opinion. I will tell you exact differences so you know what they are, but you can check that anywhere, just type 24 bit myth and you will see undisputable proof. Note that 16 bit audio wasn't chosen randomly by some moron, it's very precise calculation of what will be reproduced and what we can hear. 
 
24 bit audio with higher sampling rates have technically higher dynamic range (dynamic range (DR or DNR) is range between lowest and loudest signal) and 24 bit audio has 144 dB of DNR, while 16 bit audio has 96 dB. Why this doesn't matter at all? There is no music that is recorded with more than what's 16 bit audio capable. Signal must not be too silent or it would be masked with background noise and it must not be too loud because of clipping distortions and loudness in case physical gear can reproduce it, so either way there is no music that exist that uses that much DNR anyways. 24 bit audio also has (well possibly, that may depend) lower noise, which is inaudible with 16/48 audio for example. And about it being able to reproduce higher frequencies (thanks to higher sampling rate) there are no instruments that use those high frequencies, and it's usually some hiss or nothing, roll off is so high above certain freq that it is as well pointless, even if there was music that uses for some reason sounds over 20 KHz, but there isn't.
 
Anyways 24 bit is simply a myth and nonsense, based on placebo. It is however very useful in studio because of more headroom, but for playback and listening, it has no advantages at all. None of this is a matter of opinion, and you can check realhomerecordings channel on youtube for example to see further tests and explanations. 
 
If built in amp in your current sources isn't enough and you are not happy than player will most likely help, tho be sure to check a bit whether you should go for lot more powerful X3 than X1, since X1 doesn't exactly have the most powerful amplifier as well. Don't worry about dac at all, it's all big nonsense and biased people spread things that are simply not true. It does matter to certain point and there are bad dacs but X1, X3 or anything else pretty much doesn't matter at all dac wise, only amplifier. To actually hear the difference from dac you would need exceptionally sick setup with perfect dead silent amp and even then it would be hard to tell the difference between two good dacs. 
 
Also note that if you get X3 you can use it as USB dac for your desktop as well (especially because you said you are not happy with desktop sound as well), so by getting X3 over X1 you'd gain two functionalities and more powerful amp. 

 

[DimarzioMesaFan]

Thanks for the suggestion. I was looking into the e10k for my desktop. The x3 is certainly more sensible but it was really a matter of purchasing power at the time being.

I work on commission so I might have enough or maybe not. I suppose I could just wait but I'm rather impatient and I liked the smaller size of the x1.

I will definitely put some thought into that.

 

[DimarzioMesaFan]

Note that dac doesn't have anything to do with it, dac is very cheap and simple thing that only has one task, to convert digital to analog signal. People seem to give too much importance to it, but truth is that pretty much almost all nowadays dacs are sufficient and good. Most of them don't make any audible noise and all of them are sufficient to get highest dnr that your music have. There are some exceptions that are found in the worst cheap products but it's really a big nonsense for people to praise dac as some wonder so much. 

Problem with driving something is amplifier, that is the thing that is responsible for noise, distortions, not being able to drive certain headphones, not matching impedance, not having enough power for low sensitivity headphones. So it's amplifier inside that is problem, dac doesn't matter almost at all (as long as it is not complete crap, which it isn't in most of today's stuff that have D/A)

24 bit music is complete hoax without it being a matter of opinion. I will tell you exact differences so you know what they are, but you can check that anywhere, just type 24 bit myth and you will see undisputable proof. Note that 16 bit audio wasn't chosen randomly by some moron, it's very precise calculation of what will be reproduced and what we can hear. 

24 bit audio with higher sampling rates have technically higher dynamic range (dynamic range (DR or DNR) is range between lowest and loudest signal) and 24 bit audio has 144 dB of DNR, while 16 bit audio has 96 dB. Why this doesn't matter at all? There is no music that is recorded with more than what's 16 bit audio capable. Signal must not be too silent or it would be masked with background noise and it must not be too loud because of clipping distortions and loudness in case physical gear can reproduce it, so either way there is no music that exist that uses that much DNR anyways. 24 bit audio also has (well possibly, that may depend) lower noise, which is inaudible with 16/48 audio for example. And about it being able to reproduce higher frequencies (thanks to higher sampling rate) there are no instruments that use those high frequencies, and it's usually some hiss or nothing, roll off is so high above certain freq that it is as well pointless, even if there was music that uses for some reason sounds over 20 KHz, but there isn't.

Anyways 24 bit is simply a myth and nonsense, based on placebo. It is however very useful in studio because of more headroom, but for playback and listening, it has no advantages at all. None of this is a matter of opinion, and you can check realhomerecordings channel on youtube for example to see further tests and explanations. 

If built in amp in your current sources isn't enough and you are not happy than player will most likely help, tho be sure to check a bit whether you should go for lot more powerful X3 than X1, since X1 doesn't exactly have the most powerful amplifier as well. Don't worry about dac at all, it's all big nonsense and biased people spread things that are simply not true. It does matter to certain point and there are bad dacs but X1, X3 or anything else pretty much doesn't matter at all dac wise, only amplifier. To actually hear the difference from dac you would need exceptionally sick setup with perfect dead silent amp and even then it would be hard to tell the difference between two good dacs. 

Also note that if you get X3 you can use it as USB dac for your desktop as well (especially because you said you are not happy with desktop sound as well), so by getting X3 over X1 you'd gain two functionalities and more powerful amp. 

With respect, I didn't come for opinions on music fidelity in relation to hearing capabilities. I stated I want to try it. I did not say all hail the second coming of Christ: 24 bit music.

I was considering the dac and amp of a smartphone to be one in the same to save having to separate them in text as it really wasn't relevant to the discussion. It was a quick way to say the audio on my phone is bad for many reasons

Not looking to become a "real audiophile" but my mind is always open until I see/hear for myself. Audio is similar to video in that most of the stated capabilities of Human eyes and ears are typically inaccurate due to differences in individuals or bad testing. I'm not saying I will tell a difference, just that I will listen for myself in a blind test. Call it natural curiosity. Either way I will be getting a player that will as a side effect be able to do it so the worst case is that I lose my personal time.

 

[Tail]

With respect, I didn't come for opinions on music fidelity in relation to hearing capabilities. I stated I want to try it. I did not say all hail the second coming of Christ: 24 bit music.

I was considering the dac and amp of a smartphone to be one in the same to save having to separate them in text as it really wasn't relevant to the discussion. It was a quick way to say the audio on my phone is bad for many reasons

Not looking to become a "real audiophile" but my mind is always open until I see/hear for myself. Audio is similar to video in that most of the stated capabilities of Human eyes and ears are typically inaccurate due to differences in individuals or bad testing. I'm not saying I will tell a difference, just that I will listen for myself in a blind test. Call it natural curiosity. Either way I will be getting a player that will as a side effect be able to do it so the worst case is that I lose my personal time.

 
With respect?
 
Since you ask these kinds of questions and talk so much about the dac that wasn't problem at all I concluded that you have no idea about audio and I think I was right (now your message confirmed it, showing no knowledge about these things, at all). 
 
You mentioned yourself 24 bit audio in the longest paragraph of your comment and you said you are on budget as well, I just tried to explain you on very low level why 24 bit audio shouldn't be a thing to take into consideration, especially because you are on a budget, not because I'm evil guy that want to spread knowledge, I don't give a ** about you testing 24 bit audio or your money, but I just wanted to give you short and friendly advice with brief explanation so you don't think it's just some guy giving you his opinion, because this isn't a matter of one. So on my friendly explanation that I took couple of minutes to write after you saying you are on budget and you want 24 bit audio you give me: "with respect" and "I did not say all hail the second coming of Christ: 24 bit music." which is very rude at least.
 
I also tried to explain you the differences between the two players and tell you why I think X3 is better option, also to help fellow head-fier with his choice, but on the road you mentioned some extreme nonsense as 24 bit audio and dac.  

 

[DimarzioMesaFan]

I would hesitate to call any of your replies friendly. Yes you have helped the conversation but there is no need to get overly aggressive about nothing. I understand if you don't realize that you come off a certain way but that is why my reply was colored that way. While I never portrayed myself as an audio expert personal attacks are never welcome. I understand hardware very well in general and I understand a DAC and AMP are separate entities. Again I will say there was no need to differentiate terms when referencing a previous product I was using when that is irrelevant to the conversation. 
 
I say with respect because I appreciate the help you did provide. The condescending, overblown 'mythbusting'  rant of 24 bit has nothing to do with the topic as both players are capable. I don't want to start every thread for the rest of time with a huge disclaimer of "I don't want to hear your opinion on the audio capabilities of the human ear".  
 
Don't look for minor or irrelevant details to support an opinion/argument as it generally makes you someone who is just looking to get in an argument. (referencing your implication I don't understand the difference in a DAC and amp).
 
Also not to spoil the benevolent educator but the DAC does make a difference on this range of headphones. My question was directed at how noticeable it would be. 

 

[cel4145]

I like to call this section of head-fi the "newbie" forum. We get all kinds of requests for help here, and we never know what the person we are trying to help knows other than by what they write. Conflating DAC and headphone amp together as the same thing (among other things you have said) would have been a red flag to me that I needed to explain more as well. So relax. Rather than getting offended when someone assumes you don't know something and critiquing the helper, help us to help you.

And I disagree. DAC vs. headphone amp is relevant here for us to help you since you. Is it that you were having to run the Nexus 5 at or near maximum perceived volume that it did not sound as good as your computer? Using a lot of boosted EQ? Were you able to run your computer louder, and so that it made it better? Or did the Nexus 5 have plenty of headroom and your computer simply sounded better overall? That helps us to understand a bit more about your listening volume.

Finally, a simple blind test in itself may not be sufficient to determine whether or not you can detect the difference between 16 bit and 24 bit. There are other factors that should be considered in such a test. Check out the Head-Fi sound science forum to learn more.

 

[Zankes]

I would go for X1 and get Fiio E10 also.
 
You will hear the difference X1 vs your phone. At least I did X1 vs my Ipod Classic 6th gen.

 

[DimarzioMesaFan]

I like to call this section of head-fi the "newbie" forum. We get all kinds of requests for help here, and we never know what the person we are trying to help knows other than by what they write. Conflating DAC and headphone amp together as the same thing (among other things you have said) would have been a red flag to me that I needed to explain more as well. So relax. Rather than getting offended when someone assumes you don't know something and critiquing the helper, help us to help you.

And I disagree. DAC vs. headphone amp is relevant here for us to help you since you. Is it that you were having to run the Nexus 5 at or near maximum perceived volume that it did not sound as good as your computer? Using a lot of boosted EQ? Were you able to run your computer louder, and so that it made it better? Or did the Nexus 5 have plenty of headroom and your computer simply sounded better overall? That helps us to understand a bit more about your listening volume.

Finally, a simple blind test in itself may not be sufficient to determine whether or not you can detect the difference between 16 bit and 24 bit. There are other factors that should be considered in such a test. Check out the Head-Fi sound science forum to learn more.

I understand it is the newbie section as I am disallowed from posting anywhere else as a new user.
 
The reason I said it was irrelevant is because we are talking a bottom of the barrel phone that doesn't even sound as good as my older phone. My question actually didn't even reference or have anything to do with a phone; that was part of a reply after a sarcastic comment about DAPs was posted. I was trying to make it as short and sweet as possible because I have already ruled out my phone as a potential device to use. I am set on getting a dedicated music player. I typed up the reply on a phone with swype and simply for the sake of simplicity I referenced the DAC and amp in the phone as one in the same because it makes 0 difference on the question at hand. It is also safe to assume that a low end DAC on a desktop computer has its own amplifier because there do not exist any stock units that are not amplified out of the jack. I didn't think it was necessary to explain how the music sounded bad to people who should probably know what a ****ty sound card/phone DAC sounds like, or that the DAC and amp are separate units. I think its a safe assumption you guys realize my phone and computer have an amp built in so why bother differentiating it when it doesn't have anything to do with my question? 
 
The reason I acted hostile wasn't just for the sake of doing so, but I get extremely irate when someone wants to take everything I've said, throw it in the trash and tell me how they think it should be done instead or pick apart semantics that are safe assumptions (ie: Any dac on a computer or low end phone having its own built in amplifier). 
 
If someone doesn't think its worthwhile to buy a DAP then don't reply. It isn't a bizarre concept where I'm from. The question is Fiio X1 or X3 or rather, why would I upgrade to the X3. I'm glad a couple people mentioned it can be used as a USB DAC because I didn't know that, what I don't need is the extra crap about why its stupid to buy one, or that the idea of trying something (24 bit audio) is stupid and I'm an idiot for wanting to hear it. See where I'm coming from? 

 

[cel4145]

OK. I asked you some questions to try to understand better what your situation was and to figure out your needs. But you didn't answer them.

My advice is buy the X3 since it is clearly the better of the two DAPs. You have some preconceived notions that will make it difficult to have a productive discussion about whether or not the X1 is an adequate choice.

 

[DimarzioMesaFan]

OK. I asked you some questions to try to understand better what your situation was and to figure out your needs. But you didn't answer them.

My advice is buy the X3 since it is clearly the better of the two DAPs. You have some preconceived notions that will make it difficult to have a productive discussion about whether or not the X1 is an adequate choice.

I should have worded it differently such as "why would someone upgrade to the X3" instead of referencing anything to do with myself. The point of the question was that I hear such positive feedback about the x1 that I was confused why you would bother upgrading if its so great. But people in the thread have pointed out additional functionality. However, you are right, the x1 is probably more than adequate for me. I will likely buy the x3 because it can be used as a USB DAC as well. Didn't mean to make such a fuss I just get highly irritated with certain types of responses (not you). I know you are coming from a good place and can't know what I might or might not know.