[Sonic Defender]

Level matched, blind listening tests, all sound settings the same nobody can hear the difference between any of these competently designed and implemented DAPs. Seriously. Hearing with your eyes and price points.

 

[Yari]

New to this but are Fiio products accessible within EU, buying this off of AliExpress would put it at 810EUR because of VAT whereas earlier in the thread I thought it was said to be around 700EUR?

(Not actually buying it until I've learned more about it, but am curious about this one).

 

[zikarus]

https://fiio.eu/product/fiio-m23-portable-high-resolution-music-player

 

[jsmiller58]

Level matched, blind listening tests, all sound settings the same nobody can hear the difference between any of these competently designed and implemented DAPs. Seriously. Hearing with your eyes and price points.

I am not disagreeing with you regarding DAPs, because I’ve only owned two and at different times so I couldn’t compare them. But as a possible counter I will say that I spent a couple of hours this afternoon comparing three dongle DAC/Amps - IFi Kensei, RU7, and KA17 and they are not just subtly different, they are very very different in their treble, mids, bass, and sub-bass. This wasn’t a “I can detect this because I have golden ears” sort of experience. This was obvious to my 60-something ears, so I can only imagine how different they would sound to someone with even better ears. Granted, this was only volume matched by ear, and not double blind, but the differences weren’t subtle in the least. For this reason I have a feeling that DAPs probably can sound different. But I haven’t tried the side by side with DAPs.

 

[seanwee]

Level matched, blind listening tests, all sound settings the same nobody can hear the difference between any of these competently designed and implemented DAPs. Seriously. Hearing with your eyes and price points.

I've found that discerning gear can make a bigger difference. I didn't use to pursue source improvements because my iems were the limiting factor to being able to hear everything.

Now that I have the annihilators, even very small differences are placed under a microscope so to speak.

I enjoy the feel of being able to hear everything, follow even the smallest background melody, you may not.

But hey, if you are content with having a lower end source, stick with it

I wish I could go back to using a cheaper and more portable source. I'm quite discontent that most dap makers decided to go with larger 5 inch+ screens for even their midrange offerings.

I am not disagreeing with you regarding DAPs, because I’ve only owned two and at different times so I couldn’t compare them. But as a possible counter I will say that I spent a couple of hours this afternoon comparing three dongle DAC/Amps - IFi Kensei, RU7, and KA17 and they are not just subtly different, they are very very different in their treble, mids, bass, and sub-bass. This wasn’t a “I can detect this because I have golden ears” sort of experience. This was obvious to my 60-something ears, so I can only imagine how different they would sound to someone with even better ears. Granted, this was only volume matched by ear, and not double blind, but the differences weren’t subtle in the least. For this reason I have a feeling that DAPs probably can sound different. But I haven’t tried the side by side with DAPs.

I've been comparing sources volume matched (to 0.5db) since I got the IE711 coupler. Saved me a few purchases, wasted a few months comparing dac filters XD.

Sources can definitely sound different, if even audiosciencereview has threads talking about whats the best implementation of X dac, not even differences between different dacs, then there's definitely differences to be heard.

 

[BS5711]

I've found that discerning gear can make a bigger difference. I didn't use to pursue source improvements because my iems were the limiting factor to being able to hear everything.

Now that I have the annihilators, even very small differences are placed under a microscope so to speak.

I enjoy the feel of being able to hear everything, follow even the smallest background melody, you may not.

But hey, if you are content with having a lower end source, stick with it

I wish I could go back to using a cheaper and more portable source. I'm quite discontent that most dap makers decided to go with larger 5 inch+ screens for even their midrange offerings.

I've been comparing sources volume matched (to 0.5db) since I got the IE711 coupler. Saved me a few purchases, wasted a few months comparing dac filters XD.

Sources can definitely sound different, if even audiosciencereview has threads talking about whats the best implementation of X dac, not even differences between different dacs, then there's definitely differences to be heard.

Since you have the means to measure frequency response you would presumably have measured your IEM from your various sources and demonstrated the difference in sound ?

 

[seanwee]

Since you have the means to measure frequency response you would presumably have measured your IEM from your various sources and demonstrated the difference in sound ?

Fr isn't the only measurement that matters especially for sources (multitone, CSD, transients, etc) but you're right, I could check. Though I'm sure you can find people who have already done it before much faster.

Will PM you (or you can start a thread and @ me) when i do get to it though, since I just realised this discussion is already off topic.

Edit: Did the measurements but can't PM you.


Source - Red: Hidizs S9 Pro, Yellow: FiiO M15S
IEM - KZ PR2 (Planar)

Didn't expect to see any differences, the difference above could just be DAC filter choice. Unknown on S9 Pro and Short Delay Slow on the M15s

As mentioned before, an FR sweep isn't a good representative for sources since they measure essentially flat. And normal music isn't just a single pure tone, its a multitone, multiamplitude thing.

You'll have to refer to someone else on what exactly to measure.

.mdat attached below so you can play around with the graphs yourself. I did 3 measurements each, only changing the source and not touching the iem/coupler to control the variables.

 

[Sonic Defender]

I am not disagreeing with you regarding DAPs, because I’ve only owned two and at different times so I couldn’t compare them. But as a possible counter I will say that I spent a couple of hours this afternoon comparing three dongle DAC/Amps - IFi Kensei, RU7, and KA17 and they are not just subtly different, they are very very different in their treble, mids, bass, and sub-bass. This wasn’t a “I can detect this because I have golden ears” sort of experience. This was obvious to my 60-something ears, so I can only imagine how different they would sound to someone with even better ears. Granted, this was only volume matched by ear, and not double blind, but the differences weren’t subtle in the least. For this reason I have a feeling that DAPs probably can sound different. But I haven’t tried the side by side with DAPs.

I wonder if any deliberate sound colouration settings were on? If there are user defeatable sound coloration options those might be enough to shift the sound, and as you are likely aware, even small boosts in volume will shift our perception.

My general point is that the amplification and DAC sections if heard unadulterated, blind and level matched will sound the same. Double blind testing is not necessary unless the person doing the switching is giving things away intentionally or inadvertently.

 

[FiiO]

Portable Hi-Res Lossless Music Player M23 Is Officially Released!​

As an iteration model of the M11 Plus series, the M23 not only continues the classic hexagonal honeycomb design and the 18:9 golden ratio of FIIO, but also sees significant upgrades in configuration, performance, and user experience. It aims to fully create a mid-to-high-end portable Android HiFi player that combines both excellent performance and listening experience.

Get the “core” with AKM flagship DAC combo
Like the Q15 and K9 AKM, the M23 utilizes the flagship AKM DAC combo —— the AK4191EQ+AK4499EX. It is a new design that totally separates the digital and analog portions and also features the “DWA ROUTING Technology” to further improve the signal-to-noise ratio. These technologies allow for a purer audio background and higher resolution audio – resulting in a relaxed yet natural sound.

Double Type-C ports, patented Desktop Mode
The M23 is FIIO’s first portable player with dual Type-C ports, one of which is dedicated to accepting power only (POWER IN). When this dedicated power Type-C port is connected to fast charging, the Super High Gain Mode can be activated for more gain and more output power. In this mode, the output power can reach up to 1000mW+1000mW per channel, making the M23 better suited for pushing high impedance headphones. While in this mode, the other Type-C port does not consume any power and thus makes it suitable to connect the M23 to a phone for use as a USB DAC.

In addition, the M23 also follows FIIO’s latest patented technology - Desktop mode (D.MODE), with a switch specifically for toggling. When the D.MODE is activated, the M23 is completely powered by an external power source. The built-in battery will neither be charged nor discharged, which ensures the M23 can be used as desktop equipment without fear of damaging the battery.

4-way fully balanced THX AAA 78+ amp design
FIIO, as one of the audio manufacturers with the earliest and most widely adopted THX amp design, has long mastered and polished the THX headphone amplifier architecture. The THX AAA 78 headphone amplifiers as used in the M11 Plus and M11 Pro have been widely praised by audiophiles around the world. After several years of continuing to refine the design, we introduce the THX AAA 78+ amplifier architecture in the M23. It allows for greater power output with high fidelity, resulting in powerful sound reproduced with extreme accuracy.

Dual-mode fast charging, 5500mAh large battery
The M23 employs a dual-mode fast-charging system that utilizes extreme fast-charging + normal fast charging. At a lower battery state of charge, extreme fast-charging is used to safely allow for up to 30W charging speeds. When the battery gets close to a full state of charge, the M23 switches to slightly slower normal fast-charging, which allows for greatly improved charging times while still maintaining battery health.

The specially selected low-resistance fast-charging batteries5500mAh that employ high-temperature resistant material are paired with technologies such as a low resistance MOS protection board to ensure the batteries will last a long time.

For other features, such as fully unified HiFi audio architecture, 4 gain levels, 4-stage 20-rail ultra decent power supply, digital and analog separated power supply, 28 high-capacity polymer tantalum capacitors, self-developed Digital Audio Purification System (DAPS), six operating modes including Ronn Ready, global PEQ, global ALL TO DSD, please check the product page on our website.

* The M23 is available on our AliExpress Official Store. Click the link below to take it home right away:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3256806585212542.html

 

[jsmiller58]

I wonder if any deliberate sound colouration settings were on? If there are user defeatable sound coloration options those might be enough to shift the sound, and as you are likely aware, even small boosts in volume will shift our perception.

My general point is that the amplification and DAC sections if heard unadulterated, blind and level matched will sound the same. Double blind testing is not necessary unless the person doing the switching is giving things away intentionally or inadvertently.

For the Kensei I did have their XBass, XSpace, and K2HD settings on as that’s how I always use the device. But, good point, I will repeat with those disabled.

But, for the other two I did not have any coloration settings enabled. RU7 and KA17 sound distinctly different.

I recall doing the same experiment several years ago with a prior collection of dongles and coming away with the same results - very different sounding dongles. I think implementation and DAC as well as Amp chips really matter…

 

[Sonic Defender]

It is pretty important to level match volume. Without a doubt even a modest boost in volume will make a device stand out. And absolutely it needs to be blind. If you can detect a difference 9 times out of 10, blind, and level matched, that is great evidence.

Those are some nice devices you have mate. Cheers.

 

[FiiO]

Unboxing of FIIO M23

 

[cthomas]

@FiiO does “global PEQ” mean it’s system-wide? Also is that real carbon fibre?

 

[seanwee]

@FiiO does “global PEQ” mean it’s system-wide?

Yes, all apps will have it applied, you can even apply it when using it as a line out, usb dac or digital transport

 

[FiiO]

@FiiO does “global PEQ” mean it’s system-wide? Also is that real carbon fibre?

Dear friend,

Hi,
1. Yes, system-wide EQ.
2. Do you mean the volume touchpad? It is carborfiber textured but the material is not carbon fibre.

Best regards