[0x6A7232]

I've recently come to realize that I'm woefully underpowered. I watched this video (Falcon Heavy launch and side booster landing) at 100% volume and the Cloud Stinger has more power on all 3 devices that can power it. It even sounds a bit better than the 933 in some ways. Help me out, what am I missing? What kind of DAC / amp combo do I need to have my $150 cans rattling against my head with more ferocity than my $50 cans? Although perhaps I only need an amp to put inline with the K3 / Note 8? I don't just want to hear the roar, I want to feel it, and the Cloud Stinger is dancing on the line - I'm pretty positive the other cans can do the same, they just need more power, except perhaps the open back 58X but that's understandable. For the record, it sounds best using the Note 8 max volume with the Cloud Stinger.

 

[Viz Flux]

I think the first recommendation would be to turn the volume down. You probably shouldn't be listening to music so loud that cheaper headphones are distorting and shaking your head.

 

[0x6A7232]

...It's a rocket launch.

 

[Viz Flux]

Seems a bit expensive to buy gear based on a rocket launch?

 

[0x6A7232]

It's not just rocket launches. Certain types of music I like to hit 80% volume and get some decent bass thump that I can feel, not just hear. Only the G933s do that so far, but with less clarity. Well and the HyperX, but they don't have the same quality.

 

[megabigeye]

Do the Sennheiser and Beyerdynamic 'phones get overall loud enough? Like, if you turn up the volume are guitars, vocals, cymbals, etc. loud enough, just not the bass? If so, I think what you're probably hearing is that the HyperX and Logitech both have significantly boosted bass compared to either the HD 58X or the DT 770 Pro.

To see what I mean, check out this graph on Rtings. Don't just look at the each headphone compared to the others, but look at each headphone compared to itself, specifically the bass region (let's say 100Hz and lower) compared to the mids (500Hz). You can see that on the DT 770 Pro, 500Hz and 100Hz are about even, while ~40Hz is only a couple dB higher. For the Cloud Stinger, everything from 100Hz and below is 8dB louder than 500Hz; the same is true for the G933. That's a pretty significant bass boost! So if you get it so that vocals are all the same volume on your headphones, the bass is going to be way, way stronger on the Logitech and HyperX than the other two... Which can make the Beyers and Sennheisers sound underpowered by comparison.

Part of this is perceptual and can be "changed" with "brain burn-in." If you let your ears and brain adjust to the sound of the DT 770 or HD 58X, you'll notice that those two will begin to sound right, and the other two will sound off, with a hugely boosted bass.

Anyway,hope this helps!

 

[0x6A7232]

It does, thanks!

I guess final question: I've always had headphones that can get uncomfortably or even painfully loud. Now, once I started using high-ish end headphones like the ones I've mentioned in this thread, the only cans that can get to that level are the HyperX and G933 -- is this normal?

I mean, normally my go-to solution if I wanted to listen at high volume (which I don't do that often, but let's face is, POD, Disturbed, and Falcon Heavy launches are not meant to be listened to at the same volume as Beethoven) would be to get up to painful volume and then back off a bit. With the exception of the G933 and HyperX, basically I can max the volume and hear everything clearly but it's not really uncomfortable.

This in conjunction with the bass issue that you brilliantly explained above lead me to believe I wasn't getting enough power to achieve those decibels. I can live with that, but in the back of my mind I keep wondering if I am lacking details because the cans don't have enough juice to drive a proper response - let's say I'm listening at max volume which for the DT770 on my mobo is comfy, and with the FiiO K3 is almost imperceptibly louder. Now I can hear everything fine. Now let's say we reach a part in the music where there is a steady background level, then suddenly there is a pretty significant increase in volume, perhaps in the vocals. Or in my previous example, Falcon Heavy boosters are coming in for a landing and the twin sonic booms hit. Am I missing audio details due to the cans already pushing at their max level?

To put it in simpler terms, with normal (HyperX / 933 or cheaper) cans set to a higher comfortable level, such an increase would now be uncomfortable. One would either need to lower the volume, or accept it as normal (and acceptable due to short duration of the elevated volume listening - it's not like we're going to listen to heavy metal or sonic booms for more than a few minutes to perhaps an hour or two).

Since the volume remains basically the same when it should be remarkably higher, my intuition insists the cans simply can't be delivering all of the audio in the track, even though due to better clarity and sound stage I do hear other details before that spike in volume hits.

Am I all wet or is there something to my suspicions? There has to be some reliable way to look at the spec sheet, say "ok these cans are 80 Ohms, I need at least ______ (fill in whatever spec is needed) on my DAC / Amp to be able to deliver 100% of rated audio capacity.

What is that spec? If it were traditional speakers for an automobile system or a stereo deck I'd be looking at the wattage and SNR, I believe? Is there s simple article or video somewhere explaining what I should be keeping an eye on to ensure the equipment matches capacity? Everyone's always like "well if you aren't missing anything then leave it" -- umm, if you always listened to music on a $14 pair of BlackWeb Skull Candy IEM knock-offs, you would never know what you were missing until you experienced it. Some of us don't have any experience beyond perhaps listening to a Bose system, and we're still in shock that Bose is not actually considered the pinnacle of audio equipment (heck, the difference between a Bose and a Sony soundbar + subwoofer isn't that much that it's worth the price difference).

Sorry for the wall of text, I hope someone can understand where I'm coming from. I just want to be sure I'm not listening to audio on a $150 high quality set of cans from a reputable manufacturer and pushing $80 worth of juice through it, never knowing the difference.

 

[megabigeye]

Counterpoint: if you're not listening to Beethoven as loud as you listen to metal, you're doing it wrong.

Seriously, though. I think I understand what you're talking about.

In addition to what I explained above, higher distortion can make headphones or speakers seem louder. A highly resolving, distortion-free headphone will remain very clear even at high volumes, while a less resolving headphone will start to distort at higher volumes, which your brain interprets as being louder. This makes it so that when you're listening to good headphones you'll kind of think it's like it's loud and not loud at the same time (at least that's how it is for me). But a headphone that distorts a lot will just sound loud.
As an example, I can listen at pretty high volumes on a solid state amp because it doesn't distort very much. But my tube amp has plenty of distortion so it sounds much louder (almost unbearably so), even at much lower volumes.
My guess is that your Logitech and HyperX 'phones have significantly more distortion than you other better headphones.

To calculate how much power for your headphones you need three things: 1) your headphone's impedance (Ohms, Ω); 2) your headphone's sensitivity (generally dB/mW (decibels per milliwatt), sometimes dB/V (decibels per volt)); 3) and the amplifier's power (mW) into your headphone's specific impedance. And two rules of thumb: 1) the loudest you'll ever want to listen is 115dB; and 2) every 3dB increase in volume requires twice as much power— so a headphone with 96dB/mW takes 1 mW to reach 96dB, 2 mW for 99dB, 4 dB for 102dB, 8mW for 105dB, etc., until you reach 115dB. The problem, of course, is that not many amp manufacturers list power output for more than one specific load.
For reference your headphones are:
HD 58X: 150Ω, 104dB/mW; requires ~16mW at 150Ω
DT 770: 80Ω, 96dB/mW; requires ~64mW at 80Ω
G933: 39Ω, 107dB/mW; requires 8mW at 39Ω
Cloud Stinger: 30Ω, 102dB/mW; requires ~16mW+ at 30Ω
Just for fun, if you look at the Schiit Magni (click on the specs tab), you can see that it delivers a mind boggling 2000mW at 32Ω!

So there are probably at least three things going on here: your cheaper 'phones have a great big bass boost which makes the bass much louder than your fancier 'phones; your cheaper 'phones distort more than your fancier 'phones, which makes them seem louder; your cheaper 'phones have lower impedance and higher sensitivity than your fancier 'phones, which means that they are louder.

 

[megabigeye]

Darn it. I promised myself I wasn't going to get sucked in to posting this morning... But I forgot about impedance curve. I knew I was forgetting something.

Basically, a dynamic driver headphone's impedance isn't constant— it varies depending on what sort of tone is being played. So while your DT 770 has a nominal ("average") impedance of 80Ω, it actually is close to 110Ω in the bass (70Hz) and upper treble (~20kHz) regions.* Which means that if you have an amplifier that is barely capable of driving them at their nominal impedance— 64mW at 80Ω— then it's probably going to sound bass-less and undetailed (anemic and dark, in audiophile parlance). So what you need is actually 64mW at 110Ω in order to have that full, detailed sound.
Looking at the Schiit Magni's specs, you'll note that the higher the impedance, the lower the amount of power it's capable of producing— and this is true for most amplifiers (other than OTL tube amps). Like I mentioned before, most amplifier makers only list output power for one specific load (generally 32Ω, I think), which makes figuring out power specs for you needs something like a guessing game. At this point, most people throw up their hands and say moar powars is moar bettar!!

*Mods, if that link is banned, please let me know and I'll take it down.

 

[0x6A7232]

1) Thanks so much!!
2) throws up hands and looks for the best 1.21 GW amp he can find
3) Why would that link be banned?! It's a graph, lol.

...Anyone have suggestions on an amp that somehow, magically 1) has more than enough power for the cans I've got and 2) doesn't cost as much as a lower-mid-range gaming computer? I've heard good things about the AudioQuest Dragonfly, I see the Schiit Magni 3, which states 2000mW... into 32 Ohms... how am I supposed to convert that, darn it? lol

Found this tool linked in this thread which might help, but without knowing 3 of the variables, it's not really going to. Is there a generally recommended amp that can power 300 Ohm cans? I know there's a 250 Ohm version of the DT770 and I can't imagine I'll ever use anything above 300 Ohms, so if it can power that, I should be set for everything, right? Or am I missing something? What about the cMoyBB v2.03-Standard? I read that it's good for 30-300 Ohm cans.

Thanks again for all the input and help so far!

 

[megabigeye]

You're very welcome!

There's some history between the maker of that graph and Head-Fi. Basically, he's an engineer (he designed the O2 and ODAC) who said some things that some people here found to be incendiary. He was banned, discussion of him is banned, linking to his blog is banned... Which all sounds a little extreme, but I think it's led to peacekeeping being a little easier around here. His watermark is on that graph, so my "I'll take it down" comment was semi-tongue-in-cheek.

The Dragonfly Red is a great little amp/DAC that I used for a couple of years— it has enough power for the HD 650 (300Ω) and the DT 1990 (250Ω), but it's not the most resolving for those applications. It'd probably be ideal for your current headphones with the benefit of working as a standalone DAC that you can plug into another amp, if you ever get more demanding headphones. There's also a new Dragonfly Cobalt that is supposed to be even better, but it was just released a few days ago and not many people have heard it yet.
Currently I'm using the FiiO E12A— predecessor to the A5 and originally designed for IEMs— with the HD 650 and it's more than sufficient. On high gain, I've got the volume knob about 1/3 of the way to max.
I had a CMoyBB (what the heck did I do with that thing?) that also worked fine with my HD 650.
I've not heard any of them, but any of the JDS Labs amps would work. The Objective2 was designed by He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named with the HD 650 specifically in mind (though, as I type that I realize you never mentioned the HD 650). I'd imagine that something like the OL DAC >> Subjective3 >> Objective2 / Atom Amp could be a lot of fun. For extra fun, there are DIY versions of the S3 and O2 available on the JDS website.
I've also not heard any Schiit products, but a lot of people love the Magni, Modi, and Loki setup. Some people say they're bright, so they might not play too nicely with your Beyers.

Of those, I'd probably recommend the Dragonfly Red for $200. It's a great sounding amp that can be used with either a phone or computer. It doesn't require charging since it doesn't have a battery, but it can drain your phone's battery kinda quickly. It also doesn't have the most exciting state-of-the-art specs, if that kind of thing matters to you, but that doesn't stop it from sounding great. Or maybe the Cobalt which is supposed to sound better and drain the phone's battery less quickly and costs $300... but, like I said, I haven't heard that one yet.

 

[0x6A7232]

If I run the CMoyBB, there's not a chance it will still be under-powered, is there? Like that should be well over the amount needed? My K3 has a decent DAC as far as I can tell, and I'm sure the Note 8 doesn't have a low-quality DAC either, so I *should* just need a boost and be in the clear, at least that's what it seems like. I can then chain the K3 > CMoyBB right? The Dragonfly does sound tempting, but it costs more than any of my headphones, hmmm.... decisions, decisions. Any cautionary or alleviating notes on the CMoyBB? Like is there anything I should know before trying it? BTW, the HD 650 is equivalent to the 6XX, which is quite similar (from what I've read) to the 58X Jubilee, for what it's worth. I got the DT770 when I noticed the lack of power in the bass on the 58X (but they are sooo much clearer... the blessing and the curse of open back design).

 

[megabigeye]

Hmm... I really have no idea, to be honest. I think a CMoy would have enough power, but I'm really not 100% that it's more than the K3. I did a little bit of research and it looks like people seem to enjoy the 58X + K3 combo.

My honest advice is, before looking for a new amp, to go back to what I said in my first post about "brain burn-in." I think you're probably just used to the really bass heavy (and loud and distorted) signatures of your Logitech and HyperX headphones, so the HD 58X sounds bass-light by comparison. Not that the Sennheisers are secretly bass monsters and that you've somehow hypnotized yourself into believing they're not, but if you're used to one signature it takes a bit of mental recalibration to get used to another signature. My advice is to listen to your HD 58X exclusively for a few days, maybe up to a week or so. Try not to think about how anemic they sound or to mentally compare them to your other headphones. Don't nitpick and don't stress. Just relax and listen to the music! In fact, try not to think of the headphones at all, just enjoy whatever you're listening to. Since you're used to loud and bassy, you might start with the K3 on high gain with bass boost engaged; later, if you're up for it, try it for an hour or two without bass boost.

I think the key is to try to figure out if can you enjoy what you have, not whether you would enjoy something else more. It's a tricky proposition that's not made any easier by hordes of people online shouting about how you need toobz or 1.21 Jiggawatts of power or higher bitrates, or whatever.

If after this you're still feeling like they're missing something, then you can revisit what sort of amp you should get or whether the HD 58X are for you.

Anyway, that's probably not the gear oriented advice most people are seeking when they come to Head-Fi, but it's my advice. I'd give it more often if I thought more people wanted to hear it.

 

[0x6A7232]

I'll try that. Thanks much for all your help!

 

[megabigeye]

Good luck! I know a lot of people really like the HD 58X and I assume it's not for nothing. I hope you end up liking them, too!