[DavidA]

  Also if I want to describe a sound as mystifying, mind-bending, intergalactic out of body experience or whatever, that's my prerogative. That's the way I experienced it and it's my attempt to put my experience in English words. Hi-fi audio listening is a very personal, subjective experience that can vary from person to person, and is influenced by their own hearing abilities and even mental state and emotions. Have you ever seen me or even Howie  or UT talk down on someone who has expressed they had enjoyed listening to something? I'm sure not aware of that happening and if so that sure wouldn't be very in keeping with the community spirit.
 
Speaking of community spirit, IMO everything has been driven by the Elise threads and their two quirks: the endless pursuit of the perfect tube combo, and the way we express ourselves about its' sound. For those of you who have been around since the beginning, especially the first Elise thread, you will see countless examples of so-called hyperbole and unreasonable metaphors to explain how great the Elise sounds. But I for one find those the highlight of the Elise threads - using bizarre metaphors, poems and even gross exaggerations to describe the sound of it. I don't find this to be 'unrealistic' or hype, but rather entertaining, helpful or even funny. It's our personality! 

 

 
Next, how is anybody going to say that my 6x power tubes is so outlandish while there are others also with 6 power tubes on a massive adapter with external P/S and non-stock drivers? Seems a little biased to me. My whole pursuit of tube experimentation was from the pioneers of this thread who keep pushing the envelope - I'm just following in you guys' footsteps, and have not done anything that's electrically harmful at all.
 
The point is one of common forum guidelines: respect each other's opinions and don't make statements without proof.

While I admire your creativity and descriptions it also has the negative effect of making someone who is interested in the Elise wonder if the shipping product is "half-baked" due to all the so called better sounding combinations of tubes as another person noted a few days ago.  And since many of the so called "great" or "better than the original" combinations are done with adapters from a third party then one has to wonder if all of these combinations are so great, why doesn't FA just sell them as upgrades there by removing the issue of using non-approved adapters?
 
One thing that would help someone like me would be to give a point of reference when making statements of sound quality, if you are only saying that x combination of tubes is better than y combination in the Elise then it mean nothing to me since I don't know what even the stock sound is like compared to another amp.  This is why when my friend said that he had a chance to listen to the Elise and roll some tubes with his friends I took more interest in the Elise since he compared it with other amps such as the WA2 and Liquid Glass so I have a better idea (reference points) of where the Elise stands.
 
As for the warranty issue, just saying that if one person used non-standard tubes and didn't have any problems but you used the same combination and now have problems doesn't negate the fact that both were using non-standard/approved tubes and IMO should not be covered under warranty since the device was used outside of its original design parameters.

 

[connieflyer]

Actually, if you read the Elise document it says"Tubes can be changed by the user, the following table shows compatible alternatives"
Power tubes
Standard: 6AS7G (6N13S)
Alternatives: 6080, 5998, 6N5P, 6N5S, ECC230, 7236, CV2523
Driver tubes
Standard: 6SN7
Alternatives: 6N8S, CV181, ECC32, 5692, 6F8G
 
It says nothing about "other tubes" never mentions that adapters are to be used, it never says they authorize any person or entity, to alter or change the circuit in any manner.
It never says it "may be okay to go outside the parameters of the design with a margin of safety" it never mentions any alterations of the topography or circuitry. Pretty cut and dried.  I know a lot of tube rolling has been done, I have as well, but there are limits to what I would call a warranty repair.  You cannot verify the quality or accuracy of the adapters being used, may be fine, may not.  If they are off a small amount in tolerances, then they are additive to the whole circuit.  I have had adapters over the years, that were, let's say, less than perfect.
To expect that just because you have adapters that will physically fit, it is no problem at all. Read the Feliks documentation, at no place does it say, they allow it or recommend adapters or tubes other than those specified.  If it is not mentioned in writing, that by purchasing the product you accept these conditions, then, anything done with the amp other than those recommended are not covered by warranty.  If it is not in writing , it is not implied. If you play with fire, sometimes you get burned.  Free will.

 

[HOWIE13]

  While I admire your creativity and descriptions it also has the negative effect of making someone who is interested in the Elise wonder if the shipping product is "half-baked" due to all the so called better sounding combinations of tubes as another person noted a few days ago.  And since many of the so called "great" or "better than the original" combinations are done with adapters from a third party then one has to wonder if all of these combinations are so great, why doesn't FA just sell them as upgrades there by removing the issue of using non-approved adapters?
 
One thing that would help someone like me would be to give a point of reference when making statements of sound quality, if you are only saying that x combination of tubes is better than y combination in the Elise then it mean nothing to me since I don't know what even the stock sound is like compared to another amp.  This is why when my friend said that he had a chance to listen to the Elise and roll some tubes with his friends I took more interest in the Elise since he compared it with other amps such as the WA2 and Liquid Glass so I have a better idea (reference points) of where the Elise stands.
 
As for the warranty issue, just saying that if one person used non-standard tubes and didn't have any problems but you used the same combination and now have problems doesn't negate the fact that both were using non-standard/approved tubes and IMO should not be covered under warranty since the device was used outside of its original design parameters.

 
That's exactly right, there are so many parameters other than heater current.
 
 It would be so helpful if manufacturers could advise on which of these other tube parameters, which are readily available from the data sheets, need to be taken into account, and give us the amplifier's tolerance limits.
 
I don't think many, if any, manufacturer does this routinely, though.

 

[JazzVinyl]

Was the noise that @DecentLevi hears in the left channel present, before he tried the stack 'o power tubes?

Yes?

Or no?

 

[pctazhp]

   
That's exactly right, there are so many parameters other than heater current.
 
 It would be so helpful if manufacturers could advise on which of these other tube parameters, which are readily available from the data sheets, need to be taken into account, and give us the amplifier's tolerance limits.
 
I don't think many, if any, manufacturer does this routinely, though.

That certainly is an interesting idea. I'm just not sure how feasible it would be. I'm pretty sure I would not understand the information, but I'm also sure others would.
 
I am actually surprised that tube electronics even exist today. I can't think of another consumer product where a critical component can consist of things manufactured as long as 60 or 70 years ago.
 
I still remember as a kid in pre-transistor days reading a beginner training manual that explained basic circuitry including one volume on tubes. I remember reading (over and over) about the role of the cathode, plate and control grid. It also explained why manufacturers added a other grids. It may be the most enjoyable read I ever had and led to my Ham radio hobby days including my obtaining an expert class license (KY7A)
 
Today I still love seeing the tube glow and the listening enjoyment they provide.

 

[HOWIE13]

  That certainly is an interesting idea. I'm just not sure how feasible it would be. I'm pretty sure I would not understand the information, but I'm also sure others would.
 
I am actually surprised that tube electronics even exist today. I can't think of another consumer product where a critical component can consist of things manufactured as long as 60 or 70 years ago.
 
I still remember as a kid in pre-transistor days reading a beginner training manual that explained basic circuitry including one volume on tubes. I remember reading (over and over) about the role of the cathode, plate and control grid. It also explained why manufacturers added a other grids. It may be the most enjoyable read I ever had and led to my Ham radio hobby days including my obtaining an expert class license (KY.7A)
 
Today I still love seeing the tube glow and the listening enjoyment they provide.

Those were the days!
 
I remember the lovely sound from a mono Pye Radiogram we had  in the '50's and I've often wondered why it sounded so good. The reason is probably because it used valves.
 
My uncle worked in Mullard's Mitcham factory and he was amazed that valves he made half a century ago were being used in modern HiFi- and sounding so good too.

 

[Suuup]

Finally got my Chatham 6AS7G.

 

[lukeap69]

 
Finally got my Chatham 6AS7G.

 
Did you buy them from Lord Raven?

 

[HOWIE13]

 
Finally got my Chatham 6AS7G.

Good luck with them. They should be ideal.

 

[Suuup]

Did you buy them from Lord Raven?

I did not, as import duty would make it super expensive. I bought from Langrex.

 

[hypnos1]

  It's not about the looks though. I am fine with people experimenting with stuff and running crazy setups. It's fun. However, when **** starts coming down, you shouldn't expect a Polish amp-making family to pay. Sure, they could probably offer to repair it for a fee, but ultimately, making these (lovely) frankenstein-setups are not 'proper use' of the product, and as such, it's your own responsibility. 

 
It saddens me no end when I hear of anyone having any kind of problem with their amp. And of course, there is always the chance of component failure within any "virgin" unit, whatever its cost.
 
BUT...as I have pointed out clearly many times, the more we veer away from original configuration, the greater the risk...and the less we can - or should - expect the manufacturer to cover any subsequent damage. This is clearly a minefield, but as has been mentioned, perhaps a compromise is for the manuf'r to try and assess what may be the possible cause and make a judgment accordingly...or even (if one is lucky!) find a local electronics engineer who can perhaps give a repair estimate first and then take it from there.
 
The message is however most certainly that all of us who are prepared to experiment with our units MUST be prepared to take responsibility for our own actions...and there will inevitably be some who are luckier (or UNluckier!) than others - such is the nature of pioneering work, of course. All we can hope for is that luck is in fact with us most of the time...
 
So, these caveats notwithstanding, I wish everyone the very best with whatever choices are made in this regard...and continued HAPPY LISTENING!

 

[DecentLevi]

I can't pinpoint exactly when the noise in the left channel began, but it seems I may have started to hear it occasionally around the same time that I used the dual 6BL7 adapter with 6BL7 + EL3N via another adapter on each side, which would have been before the 6 power tube setup.
 
Along with swapping power / RCA cables, tubes including stock class tubes, trying grounded wall connections & grounded wires, I've also opened it and carefully examined all electrical connections and looking meticulously for any sign of burnt / blownout parts, loose connections, etc. to which it passed with flying colors, looking like brand new - yet the problem still remains.
 
A person of knowledge in the electronics trade mentioned about a similar problem the user of another amp experienced and outlined two specific internal faults which could have cause this issue. So it still remains an unsolved mystery on whether the fault was caused by the user or if it was an inexplicable fluke.
 

 
Two ways of solving this that I have tested however, are with external heat on either drivers / powers, and usage as a pre-amp.
(though hum-free external heat may be difficult without a grounded electrical connection)

 

[JazzVinyl]

@DecentLevi - it would be great if you could rig your own ground wire to ground an external power supply, so that you could say for certain that supplying the left driver heater with external power, solves the noise problem.

Cheers and luck....


.

 

[DecentLevi]

Thanks again for your help @JazzVinyl. I've followed your lead and came back with some interesting findings:
 
Using external heat (powered FDD20) on the right driver tube, the (random static sound) in the left channel still exists, but externally powering the left driver tube completely solves the problem. So now I can say that without a doubt it appears to be a problem somewhere between the left driver socket and the headphone output.
(Also I earlier misspoke that the noise was also gone when testing it without any power tubes rather than externally heated power tubes)
 
That is to say that I just re-tested the line-out of the Elise and this static sound is not present in any way shape or form, even at full volume on both amps with sensitive headphones. Also I've tried several types and brands of driver tubes, all of which I still had heard the same noise in the left channel with no variation based on tube. Additionally, I would say the fact that an externally heated tube being able to solve the problem negates the factor of whether my grounding is the cause, also considering I am hearing a sound that is more like a crumpling of paper only through one channel rather than any low pitched hum.
 
Looks like I'm also 'off the hook' for the notion that my exotic looking power tube concoctions had caused the problem. The only unusual driver tubes I've used was a dual 6J5 via adapter which I haven't used there for weeks before this began, and that was granted permission from one of the F.A. owners to me via email. From where I'm standing this was likely caused at no fault of my own. Unfortunately external heat is still not a good option for me, and F.A. has not replied any of my emails or my call in the last 7 days though.

 

[HOWIE13]

  Thanks again for your help @JazzVinyl. I've followed your lead and came back with some interesting findings:
 
Using external heat (powered FDD20) on the right driver tube, the (random static sound) in the left channel still exists, but externally powering the left driver tube completely solves the problem. So now I can say that without a doubt it appears to be a problem somewhere between the left driver socket and the headphone output.
(Also I earlier misspoke that the noise was also gone when testing it without any power tubes rather than externally heated power tubes)
 
That is to say that I just re-tested the line-out of the Elise and this static sound is not present in any way shape or form, even at full volume on both amps with sensitive headphones. Also I've tried several types and brands of driver tubes, all of which I still had heard the same noise in the left channel with no variation based on tube. Additionally, I would say the fact that an externally heated tube being able to solve the problem negates the factor of whether my grounding is the cause, also considering I am hearing a sound that is more like a crumpling of paper only through one channel rather than any low pitched hum.
 
Looks like I'm also 'off the hook' for the notion that my exotic looking power tube concoctions had caused the problem. The only unusual driver tubes I've used was a dual 6J5 via adapter which I haven't used there for weeks before this began, and that was granted permission from one of the F.A. owners to me via email. From where I'm standing this was likely caused at no fault of my own. Unfortunately external heat is still not a good option for me, and F.A. has not replied any of my emails or my call in the last 7 days though.

Glad you have narrowed down the problem DL. 
 
I did mention your issue to a friend and he mentioned it might be a 'cold joint'. He didn't have time to explain to me what that was so I've no idea if that makes any sense or not. Something to do with solder. You will doubtless know what he means.
 
I've had no issues so far- just sweet sound. Today I'm using the power combo 6BL7/6SN7 with Brimar 6N7GT's as drivers -and the richness of detail and weight of the sound is something I've not experienced before from headphones. Very room speaker-like sound. I know it's always possible to cause damage by injudicious use of tubes but it's so hard to imagine that could be happening when Elise is producing such lovely, effortless sound. I know it can though.
 
On another point I'm quite concerned about the time it's taking for FA to respond to you. 
 
I emailed about the same time as you with a technical question about Expressivo and have had no acknowledgement. Usually they response very quickly.
 
I do hope all is well with FA. Maybe an email/ internet glitch over in Poland.