[Insidious Meme]

I think quite a few folk would be turned off by turning something beautiful into something out of Dr. Frankenstein's lab.

 

[pctazhp]

I think quite a few folk would be turned off by turning something beautiful into something out of Dr. Frankenstein's lab.

You have succinctly stated what some here believe, but who have been derided for opposing "innovation".

 

[DavidA]

  @Jim Hodgson I truly think the Elise is a marvelous performer, and that it's best looked as a glass half full than half empty in regards to tube rolling opportunities. Just the mere fact that a medium cost amp is able to soar to such magnificent heights really makes it worthwhile. My newest tube combo creates no electrical issues, and may just look a little odd on the outside. But audio gear should be judged by the sound rather than appearance. And one benefit of my latest breakthrough is that all of these are tubes dirt cheap - one can possibly get this sound with extra tubes laying around (plus the adapters).
 
I will showcase 1-2 of my hybrid setups at the next official Head-Fi meet next month in SF, and you can read what people actually say about it after trying. And if I get the chance, I will do more of a direct comparison to the Zana Deux. But I also ascribe the the notion that price does not always determine audio performance - I've seen many examples where something 10x cheaper can still sound better

Hi DL, I'm very much in envy of your creativity in using different tubes and adapters.  The only point I would not readily agree with is the point about how the appearance should not be judged, I think the appearance is a part of the enjoyment of the gear, a least this is my feelings, and for those that would like to have the wife or girlfriend approval to keep the peace in the household .  I had a WA7d, one of the best looking amps IMO and even if I knew that it wasn't the best sounding DAC/amp combos the look and having the block of glass to protect the tubes was an important consideration in its purchase, another consideration was the fact that there were very few different tubes to try with it.
 
Another thing I've though about is the notion that there are others that have all these extra tubes laying around, I happen to have some power tubes from my BH Crack but have stayed away from the 6SN7 drivers due to having to use adapters which to me only adds an extra layer of things that could go wrong.  I guess with all the different combinations that are being proposed it get a little overwhelming to some, even to someone like myself that has rolled tubes in the Ember, Lyr2 and BH Crack.
 
BTW, don't think of this as a bad thing on your part, I do enjoy reading your posts and some of the creative things you have done to further the virtues of the Elise.
 
Agree with you that there are some things 10x cheaper that have sounded better.

 

[Jim Hodgson]

  @Jim Hodgson I truly think the Elise is a marvelous performer, and that it's best looked as a glass half full than half empty in regards to tube rolling opportunities. Just the mere fact that a medium cost amp is able to soar to such magnificent heights really makes it worthwhile. My newest tube combo creates no electrical issues, and may just look a little odd on the outside. But audio gear should be judged by the sound rather than appearance.

 
I actually don't have any objection to the appearance at all.  The exterior looks fine to me ... a few tubes sticking out of a box with some cool adapters.  Right on.  It's what's been altered in the interior that has caused all of the curiosity (at least for me).
 
And that curiosity makes me wonder if the transcendental improvement you're hearing from your substitute tubes might be from the addition of (albeit pleasant) distortion from tubes running outside of their optimal (i.e., most linear) operating points?

 

[DavidA]

  @DavidA and @Jim Hodgson. I certainly understand your positions, and that is exactly why I wrote about my concerns. I certainly would not blame either of you if you go with a different amp. As I wrote that very well may be what I would do if I were just coming here now for the first time - either that or join the French Foreign Legion ))) The rhetoric that many of us have chosen to use and the seeming "tube of the day" approach would certainly be a huge red flag for me. I firmly believe that Elise in its stock form is well worth the price, and with some additional expenditure can be taken to what I consider an "end game" for me.
 
I can tell you that I am currently running TS6SN7-GTB (original issue) drivers and 5998 power tubes (for a total investment of about $300) and that can easily be my "end game" for my HD800S. But I have to admit I went through a lot of very expensive tube rolling to reach this point. Moreover, I am just one person here and as you have found people are all over the place in their opinions and some are employing crazy looking adapters and external power sources that I believe most HeadFi members simply don't want to be bothered with.
 
No matter what many of us want to believe, the head phone world doesn't start and end with the Elise amp. There are many other good amps supported by good and informative threads where you can get a good idea of what systems they work with and what tastes they appeal to without having to wade through page after page of people constantly trying to take those amps to stratospheric levels.
 
As much attention as the Elise has generated, there are only 4 reviews of it on HeadFi. I suspect that is because most of the members who regularly post on this thread never have a particular combination in their Elise for more than a few days at a time, and believe that if they can just find that one elusive combination they will have reached audio nirvana - never leaving enough time to fully evaluate and report on the Elise the way most amps are reviewed.
 
I fear that the situation will not improve. There is fierce opposition here to separating the DIY/experimenter people into a separate thread. Even with that, I'm sure Feliks Audio will do fine. They are a small company and can't even keep up with the current demand. Plus the Elise is really the only amp in their line that has become an experimenter's dream. Selfishly, I really don't care. I have what I want and what brings me great enjoyment. I do feel a little sorry for those who might have joined me but have been driven elsewhere by what goes on here. But I'm sure no one's life is going to be ruined by choosing an amp other than the Elise)))

Thanks for this post, I've just wrote one to DL to explain where/why all the tube rolling combos can become overwhelming, and even for someone like me who has rolled tubes my Ember, Lyr2 and BH Crack.  One of the reasons I started to look at the Elise was that I could use the power tubes from the BH Crack and asked about using an adapter to use the 6DJ8/6922/etc for drivers in the Elise.
Your suggestion of separating the thread into appreciation and experimenter sounds like a good idea, I believe the Ember is separated so it can be done.

 

[Suuup]

I just slept for one night and you guys came up with a new combo Awesome DL!

@H1 Sorry the tubes were missed, I need to be more sharp this time. 3 x GEC sold for 215$ not that bad, I bought a pair for 300$ remember? That I had to let go cause of weak internals lol

I bid 214.5$ on that triple. Beat by ½ a dollar. 

 

[pctazhp]

   
I actually don't have any objection to the appearance at all.  The exterior looks fine to me ... a few tubes sticking out of a box with some cool adapters.  Right on.  It's what's been altered in the interior that has caused all of the curiosity (at least for me).
 
And that curiosity makes me wonder if the transcendental improvement you're hearing from your substitute tubes might be from the addition of (albeit pleasant) distortion from tubes running outside of their optimal (i.e., most linear) operating points?

With all the millions and millions words that have been written since the advent of high end audio back in the 60s, I have found it almost impossible to find objective, technical discussions in lay terms of why a particular amp may sound better or different than another. I guess it is commonly accepted that tubes add even order harmonics, but is that why we tube-amp types prefer them? Or can tubes be made to run more linear than solid state? Or do they produce less objectionable odd order distortion? Or are they just tone controls or equalizers in the form of glass that glows in the dark? I certainly don't know.

 

[Suuup]

I myself am not opposed to splitting up the Elise thread into two parts. What I AM opposed to, is where people wanted to draw the line. Strapping a pentode as a triode in a big marshmellow adapter isn't any less weird than using external heating. Either all rolling goes into the other thread or no rolling. 

 

[Lord Raven]

  I bid 214.5$ on that triple. Beat by ½ a dollar. 

 
I am glad I was sleeping, otherwise this trio was going up as high as 300$ Tough luck!

 

[Suuup]

   
I am glad I was sleeping, otherwise this trio was going up as high as 300$ Tough luck!

We should coordinate so we don't bid on the same listings.

 

[DavidA]

  I myself am not opposed to splitting up the Elise thread into two parts. What I AM opposed to, is where people wanted to draw the line. Strapping a pentode as a triode in a big marshmellow adapter isn't any less weird than using external heating. Either all rolling goes into the other thread or no rolling. 

How about a compromise:
 
Tube rolling that requires no adapters or external heating remain in the main Elise thread
 
Any tube rolling that requires adapters or external heating or any other non-stock/standard item be moved to a Tube rolling and other mods thread.
 
But I can see why I wouldn't want to do this since I would be searching two different threads and may make it more complicated in the long run.

 

[Lord Raven]

   
Now I've got to REALLY admonish you, LR....3x GECs for $215 and you SLEEP? - I doubt there will EVER be a bargain like that again, lol!!...(or did they have dubious readings/appearance?).
 
Don't know whether to laugh or cry, my friend...I shall simply hope and pray another such opportunity does indeed come your way...or anyone else's...

...now I need to go and have yet another glass of nice Cabernet/Merlot!...see what you've done to me?!!...(doesn't take much to persuade me in such things, though!...

...CHEERS!).

 
LOL I feel even bad now The tubes were described as 100%, 80% and 70% and they looked like GEC to my eyes I am going to need help from forum members to spot GEC and help in the bidding process by not bidding LOL
 
Please go easy on yourself, I am still on it hehe Cheers!

 

[Lord Raven]

  We should coordinate so we don't bid on the same listings.

 
Good idea, but they appear rarely, we need to first spot them.

 

[nykobing]

 
How about a compromise:
 
Tube rolling that requires no adapters or external heating remain in the main Elise thread
 
Any tube rolling that requires adapters or external heating or any other non-stock/standard item be moved to a Tube rolling and other mods thread.
 
But I can see why I wouldn't want to do this since I would be searching two different threads and may make it more complicated in the long run.

 
No adapters? That would even leave out 6f8g and 6c8g too, leaving just 6sn7 then. Just leave all the stuff here and skip over the stuff you don't want to read.

 

[Insidious Meme]

There has been a separate tube rolling thread for a while now. Probably to answer some of the criticisms that's been aired recently.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/765460/feliks-audio-elise-tube-rolling-guide-6sn7-6as7g-6080-5998