[epion2985]

I needed some help with some question I had and have a thread going in another section, but at this point it has made a turn in to questions that are more appropriate for this section.

thread:
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...=1#post1852582

What I wanted to know is this. I am looking to get a external DAC and AMP for my A900LTD's for music and gaming, however talking about this in my other thread someone said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamWill You can certainly use the external DAC to play your games, but you'll just get basic stereo with none of the spiffy environmental effects that Creative cards can do in games

My question is I dont quite understand this. Isnt all game audio prerecorded, and then effects are calculated in by the card and then all this data is sent throught the DAC on the card and then to your headphones/speakers. Why cant this data be output though digital out to an external DAC and work the same way?

 

[Tachikoma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by epion2985 My question is I dont quite understand this. Isnt all game audio prerecorded, and then effects are calculated in by the card and then all this data is sent throught the DAC on the card and then to your headphones/speakers. Why cant this data be output though digital out to an external DAC and work the same way?

Actually, I think it can work that way (I mean getting EAX even when you're using an external DAC, as long as its connected to the soundcard's digital out)

 

[epion2985]

I was going to use Optical digital out on the card. Anyone else with words of wisdom and education? So there should be no problem with running card > external dac > amp > my sweet A900LTD's ?

Thanks guys

 

[epion2985]

confirmation anyone?

 

[Tachikoma]

Try a search, there was a thread which did mention using a x-fi + VDA1 for gaming.

 

[maarek99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by epion2985 My question is I dont quite understand this. Isnt all game audio prerecorded, and then effects are calculated in by the card and then all this data is sent throught the DAC on the card and then to your headphones/speakers. Why cant this data be output though digital out to an external DAC and work the same way?

You get all the effects yes.

 

[marvin]

You get all of the effects. All the fancy stuff that EAX does is done in the digital domain before the signal gets to the DAC. All that's done after the DAC stage is amplifcation.

 

[epion2985]

thanks guys

 

[Bones13]

In the creative cards you have the EAX, and some CMSS options, these tend to help gamers with some spatial localization, and environmental effects. The real gamers use 5.1 speaker sets (or higher) with surround sound to aid these effects more.

Listening to HiFi Music thru a digital out, using an external hifi dac and amplifier, most of us disable the EAX and CMSS to avoid any alteration, resampling, etc. that a sound card can do to music.

These effects can of course be turned on and off for your needs, and what you are doing at the time.

Even a CMSS effect in a pure stereo system (headphones) will be less "real" or "spatial" than a multi channel surround system.

So one option is to put surround speakers to the 3 analog outputs on most sound cards, and use the digital to output to the DAC. Then either manually adjust your settings, or see if your software will allow you to create different automatic settings, letting you reset many options with one profile choice.

There are "surround" headphones, but I think they require more than one analog plug.

One other wrench, is that many of us listen to digital output at 44.1 mhz. Surround, along with DVD if outputted digitally is 48 mhz. If you do use your nice DAC/AMP for "surround" applications, be sure to watch your output frequencies, and change them with your application. Although many argue that modern cards can upsample 44.1 to 48 with minimal impact on the CPU and very little audible difference.

 

[epion2985]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bones13 In the creative cards you have the EAX, and some CMSS options, these tend to help gamers with some spatial localization, and environmental effects. The real gamers use 5.1 speaker sets (or higher) with surround sound to aid these effects more. Listening to HiFi Music thru a digital out, using an external hifi dac and amplifier, most of us disable the EAX and CMSS to avoid any alteration, resampling, etc. that a sound card can do to music. These effects can of course be turned on and off for your needs, and what you are doing at the time. Even a CMSS effect in a pure stereo system (headphones) will be less "real" or "spatial" than a multi channel surround system. So one option is to put surround speakers to the 3 analog outputs on most sound cards, and use the digital to output to the DAC. Then either manually adjust your settings, or see if your software will allow you to create different automatic settings, letting you reset many options with one profile choice. There are "surround" headphones, but I think they require more than one analog plug. One other wrench, is that many of us listen to digital output at 44.1 mhz. Surround, along with DVD if outputted digitally is 48 mhz. If you do use your nice DAC/AMP for "surround" applications, be sure to watch your output frequencies, and change them with your application. Although many argue that modern cards can upsample 44.1 to 48 with minimal impact on the CPU and very little audible difference.

Thanks for advice

I dont think your "real gamers use 5.1 or higher speakers" is very true. I am not a professional gamer by any means but I do game for a good 10 hours a day and most people I know do that and more. I would have to say that most use headphones for various reasons. Unlese by real you mean one that is in a tournament with money on the line sitting in a private room

. For me, I had 7.1 speakers day time and headphones night time since my computer is in my bedroom where my fiance is sleeping. But at this point I have fully converted to headphones. I dont find much benifit in suround speakers, its like switching from a good mouse to the razer mouse, its not day and night, and I do find headphones more comfortable and pleasant.

But 7.1 / 5.1 sound is a nice perk to have no argument. And to have 5.1 sound on headphones would be nice and I am qurious. Are there any 5.1 headphoes in the A900LTD class, ie not $50 "gamer" heaphones but real headphones, circumaural, closed air? And if yes are there external dacs that can output 5.1?

 

[Tachikoma]

I doubt that 5.1 headphones will ever fulfill audiophiles standards for music listening, thanks to the average "128k MP3s are all I'll ever need" consumer

 

[epion2985]

doh! bloody bastards...

 

[epion2985]

MikeW cleared a few things up for me as far as that question goes

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeW so called 5.1 headphones suck, avoid them. I dont' know how to explain it to you better.. with regards to headphones, it will sound the same as the soundcard other then sounding better. You cannot get 5.1 audio out of Headphones, headphones only have 2 speakers a left and right channel. You can surround sound out of headphones but it's Virtual HRTF surround sound, it's pretty effective at "Faking it" and in many cases more effective then speakers. Seriously though, don't buy 5.1 headphones they are a gimmick, don't take my word for it, just ask around the opinions are almost always negative. X-fi is particularly great at simulated headphone surround sound, through a technology they call CMSS, i'ts very effective in games, and functions 100% with a Dac and spdif output with headphones.

 

[ManMower]

Something that hasn't been touched on yet here:

A lot of sound hardware resamples all signals to 48khz. Not the smartest thing to do with a 44.1khz CD. If you're interested in hearing the worst case effects of this, hunt down a file called "udial.wav". (and be careful - it has very loud 19khz in it, you can fry a pair of tweeters without playing anything your ears can hear)

Effected hardware includes just about all on board audio (anything AC97 or HD codec based), and a significant percentage of creative's line (x-fi seems to be immune). It's not just a PC problem, the Power Mac G5s do it too.

On my own NForce "soundstorm" based system the problem is present and definately _before_ the digital outputs. The S/PDIF is always putting out 48khz, and my 44.1khz audio is always somewhat damaged.

There are some levels of braindamage that a DAC can't fix.

(Also, both my mice are Razers. I'll take the diamondback over anything else I've laid a hand on. The Copperhead's too picky about the mousing surface.

 

[Cyrilix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by epion2985 Thanks for advice I dont think your "real gamers use 5.1 or higher speakers" is very true. I am not a professional gamer by any means but I do game for a good 10 hours a day and most people I know do that and more. I would have to say that most use headphones for various reasons. Unlese by real you mean one that is in a tournament with money on the line sitting in a private room . For me, I had 7.1 speakers day time and headphones night time since my computer is in my bedroom where my fiance is sleeping. But at this point I have fully converted to headphones. I dont find much benifit in suround speakers, its like switching from a good mouse to the razer mouse, its not day and night, and I do find headphones more comfortable and pleasant. But 7.1 / 5.1 sound is a nice perk to have no argument. And to have 5.1 sound on headphones would be nice and I am qurious. Are there any 5.1 headphoes in the A900LTD class, ie not $50 "gamer" heaphones but real headphones, circumaural, closed air? And if yes are there external dacs that can output 5.1?

Sorry, I have nothing useful to add to this thread on top of what people have said already but...

10 hours a day! I wish I had that kind of time. Really. If I could do that on top of work, then I'd be a happy man.