[Wapencio]

Hey guys, I just ran into a confusion, I need some help to figure this out. I know digital devices store audio files in digital, thats 1s and 0s. I know headphones must receive an analog signal to play the audio, and thats what DACs, Digital to Analog Converters, are made for. So, if cellphones can make the headphones work without needing an external DAC, why does everybody tell me that amps need a DAC? Cannot I just plug an amp to, say, my laptop or my cellphone? Dont they (my cellphone and laptop) have converted already the signals from digital to analog and are ready to be amplified by an amp and be sent to the headphones? Thanks for the replies 

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[PJcarlson]

Yes your cocorrect cellphones have a DAC chip. The question is ,,,what is the quality of that chip that cost nearly nothing.

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Hey guys, I just ran into a confusion, I need some help to figure this out. I know digital devices store audio files in digital, thats 1s and 0s. I know headphones must receive an analog signal to play the audio, and thats what DACs, Digital to Analog Converters, are made for. So, if cellphones can make the headphones work without needing an external DAC, why does everybody tell me that amps need a DAC? Cannot I just plug an amp to, say, my laptop or my cellphone? Dont they (my cellphone and laptop) have converted already the signals from digital to analog and are ready to be amplified by an amp and be sent to the headphones? Thanks for the replies 

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Smart phones and laptops makers need to keep manufacturing cost down, to be able to sell the devices at a lower price.
So the DAC chip built into a cell phone or laptop is going to be the cheapest one possible, just enough to do the job.
Apple phones and computers usually come with decent audio hardware, but people are usually willing to pay higher prices for apple products anyway.
Usually the add-on DACs, will come with better DAC chips, then what you would normally find in a lot of smart phones and computers.
 
A lot of people just add external headphone amplifiers to their cell phone or laptop and are happy with it.
Just about any DAC you can get will work with just about any computer.
DACs that work with Android phones is more limited.
Devices like computers and modern smart phones need to have software driver written for them to be able to work with each particular USB DAC.
So lots of USB software drivers written for computers, Win PC, Macs, etc.
Not as many USB DAC drivers written for modern smart phones.

 

[Waldschrat]

For me, the main reason to get a DAC/Amp combo was to get the audio hardware out of my Laptop. Even though the MacBooks have decent Audio hardware built in, it suffers from the electrical interferences you find in any PC/Laptop/Mac or whatsoever. When you get the DAC and Amp out of the computer the sound will get much cleaner and usually you get a better DAC and Amp too.

 

[Wapencio]

Thanks for the answers to all of you, guys. Now I have a question for you guys, would you rather get an amp + DAC for your mobile devices, or would you rather get a high resolution player? I suppose high resolution audio players have at least a decent DAC, but, do they still need an amp?

 

[JK1]

  Thanks for the answers to all of you, guys. Now I have a question for you guys, would you rather get an amp + DAC for your mobile devices, or would you rather get a high resolution player? I suppose high resolution audio players have at least a decent DAC, but, do they still need an amp?

Some high resolution players like the Fiio X series have very high power output and don't really need an external amp unless you are using hard to drive 300 ohm or 600 ohm headphones. Those players might even work okay with some 300 ohm headphones without using an external amp. Some might use an external amp with them anyway, just to get a slight improvement over the built in one. 
 
Some other high res players, such as the Sony A15 or A17 have relatively low power output. 
 
When shopping for a portable player, it isn't just about price and sound quality, but also about portability(size and weight), battery life(how much do want?) , user interface(the features and controls it has), and power output(power output is most important if you plan to use the player with less efficient high impedance headphones. I have a bunch of players which vary quite a bit in terms of size, power output, and battery life. While exercising one might want to use a very small clip on player that is very light, even though power output is not that great, and sound quality isn't as good as their other players. Some have bulkier and heavier players that they use only at home. 
 
Aside from the issue of price, how much bulkier and heavier are you willing to let a player be to give you slightly better sound? Imo it seems like a good idea to have at least 2 or 3 different portable players for use in different circumstances. 

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Thanks for the answers to all of you, guys. Now I have a question for you guys, would you rather get an amp + DAC for your mobile devices, or would you rather get a high resolution player? I suppose high resolution audio players have at least a decent DAC, but, do they still need an amp?

 
Get a FiiO X3 Gen II (X3K), $200, works as a portable audio player and can be connected to a computer & used as an external DAC/amp.

 

[Wapencio]

Thanks for your answer JK1. Well, Ive been thinking on this https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/seiun-players-hi-res-audio-meets-4k-video ; have you tried it? I also am confused on the output power, can an amp or a player fry my phones? Is there like a manual setting for powe output or is it an automatic setting always? Thanks for the replies guys.

 

[Wapencio]

Hey PurpleAngel, thanks for your reply. Seems like a nice product, have you tried it before? I will keep it in mind, can you compare on the Sein Player series from indiegogo? That would be great. Thanks, I will seriously consider this for buying, I will for more research on it in the next few days, but it seems like a nice player on my first impression. Thanks for introducing me to it.

 

[JK1]

  Thanks for your answer JK1. Well, Ive been thinking on this https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/seiun-players-hi-res-audio-meets-4k-video ; have you tried it? I also am confused on the output power, can an amp or a player fry my phones? Is there like a manual setting for powe output or is it an automatic setting always? Thanks for the replies guys.

 

  Hey PurpleAngel, thanks for your reply. Seems like a nice product, have you tried it before? I will keep it in mind, can you compare on the Sein Player series from indiegogo? That would be great. Thanks, I will seriously consider this for buying, I will for more research on it in the next few days, but it seems like a nice player on my first impression. Thanks for introducing me to it.

It seems like a good idea to avoid newly released players made by very small companies, especially those that haven't made players before. Aside from the components chosen and build quality of the player, the quality of the firmware is very important. Some smaller companies release a player with firmware bugs, then either take very long or never release firmware updates.
 
If you turn the volume up too high, you can damage headphones. The high volume will be damaging to your ears though at a lower volume than it takes to damage the headphones.

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Hey PurpleAngel, thanks for your reply. Seems like a nice product, have you tried it before? I will keep it in mind, can you compare on the Sein Player series from indiegogo? That would be great. Thanks, I will seriously consider this for buying, I will for more research on it in the next few days, but it seems like a nice player on my first impression. Thanks for introducing me to it.

 
I've only used the FiiO X1, which i though was worth it's $99 price.
Never bought the X1, just was able to demo it for 10 days
Figured the X3 Gen II would be even better.
Like better DAC chip and more powerful headphone amplifier.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wapencio /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Hey guys, I just ran into a confusion, I need some help to figure this out. I know digital devices store audio files in digital, thats 1s and 0s. I know headphones must receive an analog signal to play the audio, and thats what DACs, Digital to Analog Converters, are made for. So, if cellphones can make the headphones work without needing an external DAC, why does everybody tell me that amps need a DAC? Cannot I just plug an amp to, say, my laptop or my cellphone? Dont they (my cellphone and laptop) have converted already the signals from digital to analog and are ready to be amplified by an amp and be sent to the headphones? Thanks for the replies 

.

 

Nearly all smartphones use an integrated audio chip - that's a DAC and headphone driver (amplifier) chip in one. The problem there is that they both have to use the same battery, the amplifier stage doesn't have its own power supply nor capacitor bank, etc. That's why it's typical to find that they output somewhere around 15mW at 32ohms but it's already at or close to audible distortion levels, it can't deliver enough current to low impedance+low sensitivity headphones nor high voltage for high impedance headphones (although in the latter case the sensitivity compensates enough to get it louder than the first case, depending on which headphones you're comparing; distortion is another matter). 

 

Now, clearly the amplifier is the problem, however you can't just use a DAC. Unlike an iPod with a line-out function that bypasses the amp section, integrated chips typically do not have such a function. Any signal out of the headphone amp will then feed into a very high impedance amplifier input (compared to a headphone anyway; these are designed really for DAC and CDP lineouts), you can get noise, maybe even distortion, etc. So what people do is just transmit the audio to a DAC+HPamp in digital format out of the phone, using the external component/s really more for the amp to drive a hard to drive headphone, while digital transmission typically keeps the signal cleaner as it doesn't have any issues getting to the DAC (apart from compatibility with such a feature), after which it's a very short path to the amplifier stage.

 

Now, that isn't the only way to get around the limits of an audio chip. A very sensitive and efficient IEM will not get the phone to a level of distortion that is easily audible, basically keeping it from getting to its limits. In my case, when I'm on the go, I use an ASG-1 with a 32ohm impedance and 125dB sensitivity; when I get home, I dock my smartphone and stream digital audio to a DAC and then to an amp driving the 300ohm HD600. The latter case is something I only seriously got into because I'd spend on the SDcard to use the phone as a portable audio player anyway, might as well cram as much music in it as possible and then be able to use it as a music server at home, where

 

1) my last CDP at some point just died on me (2012) and I was tired of constantly getting their transports serviced, something you bypass when not using moving parts, like solid state memor at least music servers are easier to service if all you need is to just replace the HDD that I can get from practically anywhere)

2) I didn't want to use my noisy fan desktop or my laptop which likely has been running all day at work, and

3) buying a music server would cost at least $450,  and even then, the one I can get for that price didn't even have a good touch screen; by contrast, I technically got the phone free from my carrier, and I just spend on the microSD card, sync dock, and OTG cable.

 

 

On the go...

 
At home with USB On The Go 

 

[Wapencio]

Hey ProtegeManiac, thanks for such a detailed answer. Let me please ask you some questions. What is a CDP? And, put simply, your advice is getting some good IEM that have a low impedance and output power so that that the audio is either fixed by them or just not affected at all by distortion because at such a low power level any kind of noise would be hardly heard? I would appreciate your answer. Thanks.
 
PurpleAngel, I checked out the X3 and X5 second gen, and I like them, however, I just got an opportunity for trying some "hi fi" headphones (Massdrop TH-X00 headphones for 400 dollars), and I think I can take it, Im still thinking about it. Would you still recommend the X3, or maybe the X5 (both of the second gen), to feed the TH-X00? I would appreciate your answer. Thanks.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Originally Posted by Wapencio /img/forum/go_quote.gif

What is a CDP?

 

Compact Disc Player, but more like the ones below than a CD boombox in the kitchen:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wapencio /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

And, put simply, your advice is getting some good IEM that have a low impedance and output power so that that the audio is either fixed by them or just not affected at all by distortion because at such a low power level any kind of noise would be hardly heard?

 

No, it's not the IEM that has a "low output power," that's like saying the car's chassis is rated for 10 horsepower. What you need to find is an In-Ear Monitor with an impedance between 16ohms and 100ohms, but preferably closer to 32ohms (where most chips have the best output power vs distortion balance), and that it has a sensitivity of at least 100dB. That is not output, but related to efficiency (some manufacturers may use either) that just tells you how much more easily it can hit 100dB in your ear canals with as little power output from whatever it's plugged into - like a smartphone - so that you avoid hitting the output level (in mW from the smartphone) where it has distortion.

 

Basically, going back to the car analogy, an IEM is basically like a Lotus sports car that can make the most out of a 4cyl Ford or Toyota engine, whereas a headphone with high impedance or much lower sensitivity is like an Audi sedan by comparison - it's agile enough to run around a race track but need a twin-turbo V10 to get it going and then run that power through Quattro All-Wheel Drive so you won't need a longer wheelbase just to manage understeer. mW is basically horsepower, and you can get to a point where it has distortion or the engine knocks from all the turbo tuning, while dB is more like kph and xkph to xxkph in xxseconds/track time in xxmins:xxseconds.

 

[Wapencio]

I think I got it, the car analogy was hard to decipher but with MindsMirror´s help I think I got this. can you please check this thread just to make sure we are talking about the same theme and I didnt deviate? 
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/797281/what-is-sensitivity#post_12315456
 
Thanks a lot, ProtegeManiac