[Ozniot]

I've used Indigo Echo for a year and half. While it's a big improvement over the dreadful sound card of my laptop, and I'd be the last person to badmouth it, any vintage portable PCDP gives far better sound and costs less to boot. A portable CD player is also smaller, handier, and goes longer on batteries than most people's laptops. This forum under "Portable Audio" is a wonderful place to discover the oldies but goodies in the PCDP department. Read those old threads, then get yourself over to ebay and bid on one of those oldies but goodies.

 

[Graz]

A truly decent codec and a truly decent headphone amp don't both fit into a 3mm thick, business-card-sized package.

I mean c'mon...we know this...right?

For approx. the same $$, I'll take a Transit + cmoy...IMHO.

I have never heard an Echo Indigo, but...
I have an M-Audio device here (Audiophile USB) coupled to a very nice cmoy, and I flat out guarantee that it stomps booty all over any echo indigo in terms of sound quality and power...there's just no doubt about it in my mind.

No disrespect intended to any happy/satisfied Indigo owners...if it's workin' for you, than more power to you. This is just my take.

Peace,

Graz

 

[xantus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graz I have never heard an Echo Indigo, but...

I think that post should have ended right there... I've heard Echo's products(though I haven't heard any M-audio products so... (I guess I should stop right there as well, I'm probably biassed anyway because my roommate's dad owns Echo... *runs*))

 

[Graz]

xantus,

Actually, I bet your roommate's dad would agree with me

(if he was truly being honest with himself, that is)...

I mean, let's look at it for what it is...
All notebooks today hang the audio codec off the AC'97 bus. The audio components are generally sectioned off into their own area (codec, power amp, and bulk caps are generally found tightly grouped on the PCB), and typically some kind of isolated analog ground is sectioned off from the rest of the DC ground plane(s) so that the audio amp has some kind of clean ground to reference to.
This is acheived with varying levels of success from notebook to notebook depending on architecture, PCB space available, competency of the PCB layout engineer, etc. The end result is an audio/headphone-out solution that meets basic, minimum requirents and little else. PCB space and layout constraint (as well as cost) simply don't allow (nor is there an overwhelming demand from a consumer standpoint) for an audiophile solution here.

Then you have the Echo Indigo. This card endeavours to essentially replace the on-board audio device in the notebook with a PCI codec (that's all PCMCIA/CardBus is essentially...just plain ol' PCI) AND a headphone amplifier...all crammed onto a PCB no bigger in in x/y dimensions than a business card...in fact quite a bit smaller than a standard business card. Pop open any PCMCIA/CardBus card for yourself and take a peek...the PCB is quite small indeed. So here we are inside our Indigo...faced with essentially the same kinds of problems we see in the audio section on the notebook motherboard...layout and space constraint. Worse still, we're faced with serious height limitations inside that PC card form factor (definitely no room for any kind of significant bulk/power-rail capacitance for the amp portion). And to top all of this off, the entire card has an allowable power budget of approx. 2W to power everything (certainly no more than 3W)...PC card slots have a limited amount of power supply per card.

With all of these challenges facing the Indigo, frankly, it's a wonder it sounds any better than most stock notebook audio solutions... The fact that it does, IS a credit to Echo...it's certainly a challenge from an engineering standpoint to make this work.

But I remain steadfastly behind my earlier post...I would much rather have an external solution over the Indigo...and yes, even without having ever heard it. And I hate to say it, but I think that at approx. $150, this card is sort of a ripoff...but I don't think any other company makes a card like this, so they kind of have the market cornered. When you look at it from the standpoint that it's really only a tiny PCI audio card..and compare it to desktop PCI audio cards...$150 starts looking pretty steep for what you're really getting here in terms of sound quality.

Peace,

Graz

 

[saab]

I have never heard the Indigo, let me start out with that.

I may be wrong Graz, but I feel that your criticisms of the Echo are way out of line. I have no idea how anyone can say that something that he or she has never used is over priced. The only way I see a statement like this having any bit of credibility is if it was a common sentiment from many people who have experienced what the Echo Indigo has to offer (which I don't believe it is).

I don't want to get into an arguement, and I full understand that you are entitled to your opinion, I just can't believe you would offer that opinion with honestly nothing to base it on.

John

 

[thomaspf]

I am not sure they are out of line but they sound rather evangelical.

I own a couple of M-audio cards and cards from other manufactuers. I also have an Optoplay, an Indigo but I returned the Sonica and the Audiophile USB.

Both the Sonica and the Audiophile sounded nothing special and certainly not any better than the Indigo which makes the extra bulk just useless.

The one thing that is constrained on a PCcard is capacitors but having plenty of those does not necessarily make your sound any better.
None of these cards deploy discretely built class-A analog sections or unusual converters but the chips are all the same and a low profile mounting option does not impact the sound.

Cheers

Thomas

 

[tiberian]

lol, i have indigo dj and m-audio sonica, indigo dj sounds better IMO (fuller sound, more details and dynamics).

 

[Graz]

Quote:

I have no idea how anyone can say that something that he or she has never used is over priced.

By anaylizing the card for what it is, and assessing the total cost of the components that comprise the card. Grand total, there are no more than $30-$40 worth of parts inside the card (probably far less in all actuality). Hence, it's over-priced.

Peace,

Graz

 

[Budley007]

Yo Graz. Howdy again. I've never met anyone that listened to my Indigo/SR225 setup that didn't like it. I even got a few "WOW!"s out of em. You have some great points on the price of the Indigo. I just wanted to point out that I personally love the way my Indigo sounds as compared to my notebooks onboard sound. It's extremely convenient and has plenty of power for my Grado cans.

It also runs flawlessly with my Sonar sequencer software. I paid $140.00 for mine on a "special offer" through Cakewalk when I purchased Sonar 3 from them almost a year ago. (it's the IO model)

Considering the convenience and great sound I'm enjoying, IMHO I don't consider $140.00 to be that much to ask. Besides, I'm sure I'm not the only person here that doesn't want the added hassle of lugging around another external USB device.

If you're enjoying the M-Audio Transit then great. I'm really glad you like it. From what I've read around here, it sounds like a great portable solution. I never owned one, so I can't "officially" recommend it, but I've owned the Indigo for awhile now and consider it a worthy purchase.

 

[Graz]

Budley007,

No doubt about it...from a portability & convenience standpoint (for notebooks), I'd venture to say it's impossible to beat a PC card solution. And if it's working for you, and you're diggin' the sound, then that's all that matters really.

Sorry if I seem so adamant on this topic. I've been working in the electronics/PC industry for 20 years, and specifically in the notebook PC business for right at 10 years (and in fact, have done a few notebook PC audio designs myself...it's a fun challenge actually). I know with reasonable certainty that what's in the Indigo component-wise is extremely similar to what's used in most notebooks audio designs to begin with...the biggest difference here is that with the Indigo your relocating your audio solution from the potentially noisy notebook motherboard over to the PC card slot. I also have a pretty good idea how much this stuff generally runs cost-wise, so I'm confident that I'm speaking intelligently on the price/cost subject.

Anyway, I've already dragged this out more than I should've...sorry for being the villain in this thread...it was never my intention.

Happy Listening!

Peace,

Graz

 

[Budley007]

No sweat bro. I wasn't taking it wrong. Feel free to post anytime. Your concerns have merit.

 

[saab]

I want to appologize, Graz. I think I came accross a little too harsh. I know you surely have more knowledge than I do in your field, and I am a fairly new poster, I just read your posts as attacking something you had never used.

I am considering purchasing an Indigo, and I do appreciate your comments.

Anyways, I am sorry if I sounded condescending or anything...it was not meant that way.

John

 

[Graz]

Saab,

No worries...

It would be a boring forum if everyone always agreed on everything.

Differing opinions are what make this forum so informative and interesting. And I have to say that head-fi.org is quite possibly the most civil, mature, level-headed forum I've ever actively participated in. Flame wars & trolling are kept to a minimum, while still allowing for spirited debates on hot topics.

A tip o' the hat to all of the moderators who make this a great, great forum.

Peace,

Graz

 

[JML]

The November 2004 Stereophile reviews the Echo Indigo IO Cardbus (starts on page 95). The focus is mostly on using it to convert analog to digital, and John Atkinson's review is quite positive, with plenty of charts and graphs.

 

[Moses4188]

I own and daily use the Indigo for more than a year now and must say I was very happy with it until...

There is one thing people buying Indigo maybe aren't entirely aware of. The volume knob on the card is an ordinary analogue pot. It is not a "control" knob working in cooperation with DSP or DAC or drivers or anything. It is directly in the signal path. That means it is just a matter of time when the knob starts to make trouble. And my time has already come...

Firstly, crackles, static and hiss started to appear only when I moved the knob. As they were getting more intensive, I tried to forget that the knob had been there at all and used solely the software console for adjusting volume. But now, the pot is probably so polluted with inevitable dust that even a slightest movement of the card or the notebook itself (or sometime even no movement at all) makes the knob add significant amount of hiss and static to the output...

The developers must have known that an analogue pot directly in the signal path will have a limited lifetime. It takes me by surprise even more as Echo Audio is by no means a novice player in the professional and prosumer audio world. It kind of reminds me of the battery problems with iPod -- similarly to the battery in iPod, the pot is AFAIK by no (ordinary) means user replacable. The iPod movement is fortunately so massive that pictorial guides for replacing the battery yourself are all around the Internet nowadays. But I strongly doubt that anything similar will appear for the Indigo card.

Maybe in US sending the card to Echo for repair is not a big deal at all. But I bought mine in Europe. The price was nearly double the one in US and I'm not sure whether there is any local after-guarantee repair service at all.

And who knows. Maybe I'm the only one having this problem. In that case, please ignore my pointless rant...

If there wouldn't be this nasty issue I would happily recommend the Echo Indigo to anyone. In terms of audio quality it is a really great product. The drivers are rocksolid and the virtual outputs are really useful when running multiple audio applications concurrently. (All the Indigo series has this feature as the drivers are the same for the "plain" Indigo and both the newer IO and DJ version.)

P.S. If anyone knows how to replace/clean/repair/anything the volume pot in the Echo Indigo, plase LET ME KNOW! Thanks.

And sorry for my English.

Greetings from Slovakia.

 
Greetings from Slovakia (respective Czech Republic now)!
 
Maybe it's too late and in meanwhile You got rid of that soundcard but I had the same issue with my Indigo IOX which I bought recently from some polish seller on ebay. First I didn't realise that there was some problem with the potentiometer because I tested that soundcard with 250Ohm DT831 headphones. I realised it after few days when I used my NTB for one sounding action at our museum. Then i tested it with my smaller DTX501p headphones where I noticed hiss and crackling during manipulation with that pot. I tried to push it down with force and it stopped for a while. Later it became really annoying and I couldn't stand it anymore so I decided to exchange it. I used ALPS RK09712200MC potentiometer. The size is almost exact as the original one. The only thing I had to grind off a bit was the plastic knob because the shaft is around 1,5mm longer than the original one. Also a small problem during desoldering was that the original pot was really strong at hold because the holes on the board are quite tight. The original was probably some OEM 10kohm logarithmic pot. If You're interrested in more info feel free to write me.