[sno1man]

This post was triggered by my listening to Amnesiac by Radiohead today for the first time in many months.

Amnesiac was my introduction to Radiohead (via my GF) and I thought at the time that it was great and it quickly became my favorite CD.

Listening to it now though, it has not worn well. It is a decent album no more no less. It doesn't hold a candle to OK Computer for example.

The thing that did attract me to it though was how innovative it was at the time. I had not heard anything like it. But innovation does not really translate to great all of the time.

Public Enemy and The Beastie Boys are another couple of good examples. It takes a nation of millions and Paul's Boutique were incredibly innovative and I remember playing the heck out of them but they have not worn well and now sound very dated. There are a few good songs (Fight the Power, Sabotage) but most of it now just evokes nostalgia. I think unfortunately that RAP in general is especially prone to this.

But then you have something like John Coltrane's a love Supreme or the Beatles Abbey Road. They are still as fresh and relevant now some 30 years on. As I look at my music collection I wonder how much of it 30 years from now will affect me profoundly and make me say wow. Unfortunately, probably not much.

Or am I just starting to get old and cynical.

Anyone else care to weigh in?

 

[Riordan]

everyone gets old and cynical, it's just a matter of time, nothing to worry about. only if it takes you long enough you'll be labeled "wizened" instead

i think i understand your examples and have similar opinions about them - but i believe there's shades of gray and other phenomena playing their roles when it comes to how fresh or timeless something is (or seems...)

some "innovative" music ages well and still sounds more out of time than timeless - yes comes to mind, or jimi hendrix.

on the other hand there are some songs that were clearly a product of their time without being innovative at all that have stayed fresher than more innovative contemporaries.

example: 80's pop songs like men at works' down under, talk talk's such a shame or the pet shop boys' it's a sin - fresh as ever. kraftwerk on the other hand were innovative but sound a bit outdated now.

i guess i don't understand the mechanism at all - any more (and more concise) ideas?

 

[sno1man]

After giving this some more thought I think that part of the problem is where the innovation is the biggest part of the music and the underlying structure (lryics, melody) may be considerably weaker.

A good example of an innovative song that has worn well is Heroes by David Bowie. There the sound of the song was innovative especailly the way the lead guitar somewhat mimic an air raid siren. But also the song lyrically and musically is just very solid.

So I guess maybe some music is like cotton candy (most RAP) while some are more like steak dinners (coltrane, Miles Davis, some Van Morrison)?

 

[minya]

Quote:

Originally posted by sno1man So I guess maybe some music is like cotton candy (most RAP) while some are more like steak dinners (coltrane, Miles Davis, some Van Morrison)?

Broad, sweeping, and utterly uninformed generalizations are never a good idea.

- Chris

 

[sno1man]

My generalization was more about most music in general. Van Morrison who to me has produced one of the most incredible CD's ever (Astral Weeks) has also produced a lof of forgettable mediocre junk,

Even Miles davis has released some junk. (a lot of his late 70's early 80" stuff like Decoy)

As a matter of fact within my collection the only two artists that produced quality work start to finish was the beatles and coltrane.

Dont get me wrong, I am a big fan of all kinds of music and it does bother me that a lot of RAP has such a short shelf life. I'm a big fan of Jayz, Outkast, 50 cent and so forth but I wonder if i will be able to say that 10 years from now. I wonder the same thing about The Rapture and The White Stripes.

I guess time will tell and maybe my view is not long enough. Do you suppose that a lot of crap was produced during Mozart's and Beethovens time but that it just didn't survive?

Of course implicit in all this is that this is my opinion, I welcom differing points of view. Like I said these thoughts dont exactly make me feel good

 

[minya]

Quote:

Originally posted by sno1man My generalization was more about most music in general.

OK, I guess I can understand. In fact, I'd go so far as to agree with you. Just about all mainstream music is, indeed, worthless junk that really isn't worth spending time on.

Quote:

Dont get me wrong, I am a big fan of all kinds of music and it does bother me that a lot of RAP has such a short shelf life. I'm a big fan of Jayz, Outkast, 50 cent and so forth but I wonder if i will be able to say that 10 years from now. I wonder the same thing about The Rapture and The White Stripes.

No, probably not. But my implicit point was that there's a lot more out there than just Jay-Z or 50 Cent -- there's a thriving underground rap & hip-hop scene where limits are being pushed and creativity flows. There are scenes like this for just about all forms of music, actually. But it's the cookie-cutter stuff -- the stuff that doesn't challenge your expectations or make you think -- that is the most popular, because it's easier to listen to.

Quote:

Do you suppose that a lot of crap was produced during Mozart's and Beethovens time but that it just didn't survive?

Music (and art) then (vs. now) was very, very different, so this isn't really a fair comparison. Almost all music was either commissioned or written for religious purposes. Self-expression (though it did appear to a limited degree) was not the point.

- Chris

 

[Guardian]

Quote:

Originally posted by sno1man This post was triggered by my listening to Amnesiac by Radiohead today for the first time in many months. Amnesiac was my introduction to Radiohead (via my GF) and I thought at the time that it was great and it quickly became my favorite CD. Listening to it now though, it has not worn well. It is a decent album no more no less. It doesn't hold a candle to OK Computer for example.

Kid A.


But yeah, I wonder about the actual worth of what I'm enjoying sometimes. I know that much of it is far from being a masterpiece, but does that matter? I guess that I think it does.

But something like Interpol is just so damn fun. What can I do?

 

[Braver]

is your enjoyment at this moment affected by your (suspected) future enjoyment? why's that?

look, none of the music that's made today has been around as long as the music we now consider classic. only time will tell.

as long as it's not just fun, stuff can go a long way.

there's types of music that I like to listen to like once or twice a year, that are fun, but also rather shallow. lounge like Thievery Corp is very cool, but it doesn't carry any weight.

one question/test I like (Bill Bruford quote actually): does it tell a story?

music can be so much more than mere entertainment!

edit:I'm rambling...*counts empty beer bottles*...I should grab some sleep

 

[Hammerstein]

Quote:

Originally posted by Guardian Kid A. But yeah, I wonder about the actual worth of what I'm enjoying sometimes. I know that much of it is far from being a masterpiece, but does that matter? I guess that I think it does.

Yeah...it's hard to call. I think, in the end, the music that you listen to at that time is all that matters. The end judgement isn't as important, since clearly you enjoyed it once, even if you think it's a waste later

It didn't waste your time at that particular moment.

What about Kid A, though?

 

[sno1man]

Kid A ,after listening to it today kind of left me cold too. I wonder if it is a cyclical thing.

Substance and meaning and beauty are things are things that are important for music to last. But those are extremely hard to define except in the you know it when you hear it. And even then that does not fit a classic like Louie Louie which nonetheless i consider classic.

Then there is music no matter how many time I hear it still affects me powerfully. Miles Davis opening notes in Concierto De Aranjuez from Sketches of Spain is some of the most beautiful sound ever recorded. Love Will Tear us Apart by Joy division is amazing in making something so painful also beautiful.

Maybe it's just a phase that's making me doubt the music I claim to like. I'm just wondering if this even makes sense to anyone.

BTW: Guardian I like Interpol's album quite a bit and got to see them in live New York last fall. They rock out live and kind of mix the Joy Division vibe you can hear on the album with generous amounts of Doors and King Crimson. Great show