DT880 : Amplification required?

[DaHoboFest]

hey, the BOSE "no highs, no lows, gotta be bose" meaning they have mids

 

[atx]

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Originally Posted by Azure I thought the DT880s were great with vocals, primarily female ones? And the DT880s have recessed mids just like the A500s? That sucks; I was looking forward to hearing something with good mids...don't know if I should still go with them then.

That's what everyone told me. In fact I posted a thread called "K501 or DT880" with questions like "which is better with vocals?" and virtually everyone says both headphones are good with vocals.

Well, I bought both and I must say the DT880 absolutely suck with mids. The best mids out of my headphones are the K501s. The best all-rounder headphones (from the ones I own) are the HD580/600 (I have the 580), but some people don't like the veils of the Sennheisers-- they don't sound "crisp" which some people associate with "boring."

I've never heard the A500s so I can't comment.

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Im confused, if it has a recessed mid, then you would boost the mids, like an upside down V

You can if you like using equalizers, but just like any hardware deficiency, you really can't compensate completely. E.g. I can boost the bass on my 501s using EQ, but they just don't sound natural so I leave them off.


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hey, the BOSE "no highs, no lows, gotta be bose" meaning they have mids

Exactly why I bought the Bose series IV speakers. They got lousy highs and lows, but a very nice, natural midrange. I guess I'm a sucker for mids. I can live with weak bass and rolloff highs, but without mids... man there's no music.

 

[DaHoboFest]

haha, lol, so you actually bought some BOSE becuase of their mids? and no other speaker cheaper can produce betteR?

 

[Elephas]

The DT880 is on the bright side, and treble is more prominent.

I've also heard the K501, and it sounded very good and also has an excellent soundstage, rivalling or maybe even surpassing the DT880's.

However, the K501's weak point is bass. It needs to be matched well with an amp for bass to appear, and even then it doesn't compare to the DT880.

As for female vocals on the DT880, they sound pretty good to me.

I don't agree that "the DT880 absolutely suck with mids."

 

[White Fox]

'The pounding bass aches after a while' & 'the DT 880 absolutely suck with mids' sounds like frustration venting over a bad headphone choice or trolling to me.

Personally, I find the DT 880s to be a much more enjoyable and balanced headphone (although I still find them to be slightly bright) than the K501, especially at loud volumes - you must be really cranking them if the bass is truly pounding...

It could easily be argued that the K501 have an over-prominent midrange. Thats cool if mids and vocals are important to you, but stating that the DT 880 absolutely suck with mids is pretty silly. The mids sound just fine to me, as does the rest of the spectrum.

 

[atx]

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Originally Posted by White Fox 'The pounding bass aches after a while' & 'the DT 880 absolutely suck with mids' sounds like frustration venting over a bad headphone choice or trolling to me.

And this sounds like a fanboy who doesn't like someone else knocking down his favorite headphone.

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haha, lol, so you actually bought some BOSE becuase of their mids? and no other speaker cheaper can produce betteR?

Not at that time. I was on a limited budget and among my choices were JBL, Sony, Pioneer, and a few others not worth mentioning.

 

[White Fox]

Knocking down is fine (and I don't think I've ever wrote anything to be considered a 'fan boy' of anything before), but making hyperbolic statements trashing them with little relation to other comments about the DT 880s on this forum will probably not get unnoticed, don't tha think?

 

[atx]

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Originally Posted by White Fox Knocking down is fine (and I don't think I've ever wrote anything to be considered a 'fan boy' of anything before), but making hyperbolic statements trashing them with little relation to other comments about the DT 880s on this forum will probably not get unnoticed, don't tha think?

You think they're hyperbolic statements because you don't agree. They're not hyperboles to me. When I said, "DT880 absolutely suck with mids," I meant it without exaggeration.

If my statements have little relation to other comments about the DT880s, so what? Either I have sensitive ears, or they're deaf. Who knows, and who cares. I do know what I'm hearing, and what I'm saying is simply my opinion. If you don't agree, then state yours, but don't make presumptions about my "frustrations" or intentions of "trolling" the thread just because I don't follow the herd mentality. I don't agree with the herd. Deal with it.

 

[JensL]

Well atx, I guess I'm one of the "herd", as I love the DT880s mids.

Also, I still haven't heard a more balanced headphone than the DT880 yet. There's no overblown midbass or deepbass, it's just very detailed and controlled in all the lower frequencies.

But the DT880 can be quite picky when it comes to the gear it's used with. I'm using it with a MAD Ear++ tube amp, and a good CD-player. The Beyer really seems to shine with tubes and a good source.
If you haven't got an amp, or got a really bright amp and source, the DT880 might be lifeless and harsh. Seemingly lacking mids.

You're definitely entitled to your opinion, and I welcome it, even if I don't agree.
However, I think your wording is a little unfortunate. You're very categorical, and give little info on preferences, gear used, testing procedure etc.
"The mids suck" won't help if you want to be taken seriously.

Unfortunately some folks just browsing for some quick info on the DT880 might find your comments, put too much weight to them, pass on the DT880, and might miss out on the headphone that suits them best.

All I'm hoping for is a little more effort and respect in your comments. That will make them more helpful, and you won't be mistaken for a troll.
I guess that's what makes this such a great forum.

 

[atx]

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Originally Posted by JensL But the DT880 can be quite picky when it comes to the gear it's used with. I'm using it with a MAD Ear++ tube amp, and a good CD-player. The Beyer really seems to shine with tubes and a good source. If you haven't got an amp, or got a really bright amp and source, the DT880 might be lifeless and harsh. Seemingly lacking mids.

You can pair any headphone with an expensive piece of equipment and they'll bring out the best of them, but I don't believe this is a fair evaluation.

Get a Koss KSC35, and tell me, "these earphones are horrible," and I can tell you, "well, the reason for that is because you have them hooked up to a cheap source and amp.... get an SR71 for $400 and plug those $20 earphones to the amp, and they'll sound great!" which really misses the point, since if it takes an SR71 to make the KSC35 sound good, then these headphones don't cost $20, but $420 !

I'm evaluating the DT880 *relative* to my other headphones using the SAME source and amp. Under these conditions, the DT880 mids suck hard--- which is not saying that these headphones are horrible. If I were to evaluate the DT880 by itself, never having heard the other headphones, I would say that the mids are pretty good. If it was my first headphone, I would say they're perfect!

So, in other words, among my headphone collection: Beyer DT880, AKG K501, Senn HD580, Grado SR225, Stax SR001, Ety ER6i--- using the SAME amp and source, the DT880 have the *worst* mids regardless of the type of music that I listen to. I believe this is a fair evaluation.

The DT880 will probably shine with a $10,000 source and amp, but really... how useful is that for a newbie buying his first audiophile headphone?


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Unfortunately some folks just browsing for some quick info on the DT880 might find your comments, put too much weight to them, pass on the DT880, and might miss out on the headphone that suits them best.

Those folks need to realize that you can't depend on other people's opinion to find the headphones that suit them best. The DT880 may very well have balanced mids, but my ears may be sensitive to lower and higher frequencies so that my *perception* of the mids become recessed. OR, my ears can be perfect and the DT880 do actually have recessed mids, but you may have hearing loss in the upper and lower frequencies so that they sound balanced to you. There's no way to know.

 

[apostate]

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Originally Posted by atx You can pair any headphone with an expensive piece of equipment and they'll bring out the best of them, but I don't believe this is a fair evaluation. I'm evaluating the DT880 *relative* to my other headphones using the SAME source and amp. Under these conditions, the DT880 mids suck hard--- which is not saying that these headphones are horrible. If I were to evaluate the DT880 by itself, never having heard the other headphones, I would say that the mids are pretty good. If it was my first headphone, I would say they're perfect!

This isn't really the same thing. If I were to pair some Aerial Acoustics 20T speakers with my old Kenwood receiver I would be willing to be they wouldn't sound like anything special. The limiting factor in that equation is the power output of my receiver (and it's mediocre quality) NOT the speakers. In that case it would be ridiculous to rate a pair of $20,000, Stereophile Class A speakers based on my POS receiver.

Isn't it possible that it is unfair to rate the DT880s the same way just because they don't cost as much as say the Qualia?

The best sources and amps can only go so far to make something that is poor quality sound better. On the other hand products of very good quality will continue to improve as the rest of the components are brought to a comparable level. I think there is likely a reason that this is one of the headphones that Headroom offered with a balanced cable for the Blockhead.

This is not really an attempt to defend the DT880 since I haven't heard them. I think this may apply to many of the higher end headphones. You'll also notice in some of the meet thread that many people mention a substantial improvement with HD650s when driven by balanced amps, some of which exceed the cost of the headphones by almost 10x. Yet another instance where it appears the headphone continues to provide improvements as the amplification is changed/improved suggesting that it offers much more than is likely found but using it directly out of an iPod headphone out and that perhaps, while you may not like the way it sounds in that configuration, it isn't really the headphone's fault that it isn't performing the way you want but rather that the configuration you have it in is handicapping it.

If I had judged my Senn 595s from just the headphone output of my old Kenwood instead of Total Airhead/iPod, Rotel receiver or partially finished Proceed setup (still a work in progress) I would still be listening to Sony MDR-V600s. Thankfully I had already read how bad receiver headphone outputs could be because every other configuration I have tried shows the V600s to be very poor in comparison.

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Originally Posted by atx The DT880 will probably shine with a $10,000 source and amp, but really... how useful is that for a newbie buying his first audiophile headphone?

Perhaps said newbie has plenty of money to spend and also has a high end stereo system with a $10K source. It is also possible if everyone that reviews a given headphone with a $10,000 source and amp says that it is the best sound they have ever heard that for someone it will be worth investing in it to get that sound.

I don't really see these forums as only being for people that are new to headphones. There are many people here with very high end equipment and I'm certainly curious to hear their comments even if I haven't reached that level. The information provided can be invaluable given how hard it can be to sample a lot of equipment when entering the upper echelon of high-end audio.

I think it is also disrespectful to suggest that everyone else that like the mids on the DT880 has flawed hearing simply because you disagree. Maybe it would suffice to say that you didn't like the mids on the DT880 with your configuration and leave it at that.


Ant

 

[JensL]

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Originally Posted by atx I'm evaluating the DT880 *relative* to my other headphones using the SAME source and amp. Under these conditions, the DT880 mids suck hard--- which is not saying that these headphones are horrible. If I were to evaluate the DT880 by itself, never having heard the other headphones, I would say that the mids are pretty good. If it was my first headphone, I would say they're perfect!

Well, what amp and source are you using for your headphones?

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Originally Posted by atx Those folks need to realize that you can't depend on other people's opinion to find the headphones that suit them best. The DT880 may very well have balanced mids, but my ears may be sensitive to lower and higher frequencies so that my *perception* of the mids become recessed. OR, my ears can be perfect and the DT880 do actually have recessed mids, but you may have hearing loss in the upper and lower frequencies so that they sound balanced to you. There's no way to know.

People's quality of hearing is very varied, no question about that, but as I think you are aware of, your opinions seems to be very different than almost everyone elses.
Is it very probable that everyone else have a hearing defect?
Maybe you have a very specific taste that don't match "the herd"?

A little more respect for others opinions and experiences would be very helpful, I think.

 

[Dr.Vencman]

OK, here is my opinion; the mids in the beyere 880's are wonderful.

For the price of these headphones, they are very realistic/natural sounding.

 

[LamerDeluxe (tm)]

The Philips HP-1000s are most definitely NOT crap by a long shot.

You need to burn them in for a couple of weeks for them to sound their best (using bassy music at slightly above listening volume helps increase the bass).

They have a wonderful soundstage and a very refined, detailed sound, very smooth, never harsh. They can sound a little bit dark, as their mids are slightly recessed, which can be improved by subtle equalizing (they respond very well to equalizing).

Their bass goes deep, but doesn't have the mid-bass hump of the HD-580/HD-650. The HD-595 is more up-front and grainy sounding, without the great soundstage and instrument seperation of the HP-1000. I found the HD-595 to have an annoying resonance.

They also work great with surround sound in movies and games.

At the price they go for (I got mine for 99 Euro), they are an absolute steal.

 

[atx]

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Originally Posted by apostate This isn't really the same thing. If I were to pair some Aerial Acoustics 20T speakers with my old Kenwood receiver I would be willing to be they wouldn't sound like anything special. The limiting factor in that equation is the power output of my receiver (and it's mediocre quality) NOT the speakers. In that case it would be ridiculous to rate a pair of $20,000, Stereophile Class A speakers based on my POS receiver. Isn't it possible that it is unfair to rate the DT880s the same way just because they don't cost as much as say the Qualia?

Not really. If your Aerial Acoustics speakers sound like crap with your old POS receiver, then you would get an even crappier sound with a more inferior set of speakers. In that environment, clearly your Aerial Acoustics will still be the best sounding relative to your other inferior speakers.

If you want to compare speakers, you need to keep your other variables constant-- this includes the receiver, the source, the cables, and the music materials you use.

The worst you can do in this type of testing, is that your receiver is REALLY crappy and you would hear NO difference between your Aerial Acoustic speakers and a pair of Bose-- which would clearly indicate the limitation in the receiver.

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You'll also notice in some of the meet thread that many people mention a substantial improvement with HD650s when driven by balanced amps, some of which exceed the cost of the headphones by almost 10x.

That reflects the quality of the amp as much as the headphones.

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Yet another instance where it appears the headphone continues to provide improvements as the amplification is changed/improved suggesting that it offers much more than is likely found but using it directly out of an iPod headphone out and that perhaps, while you may not like the way it sounds in that configuration, it isn't really the headphone's fault that it isn't performing the way you want but rather that the configuration you have it in is handicapping it.

You're referring to a non-comparitive evaluation, which is really meaningless. A person who hears Bose for the first time will have the same reaction as an audiophile hearing your $20,000 speakers for the first time.

Whether or not something sounds good, depends a lot on what you've already heard. Like I said, if I were hearing the DT880s for the first time, I would say the mids are perfect.

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If I had judged my Senn 595s from just the headphone output of my old Kenwood instead of Total Airhead/iPod, Rotel receiver or partially finished Proceed setup (still a work in progress) I would still be listening to Sony MDR-V600s.

Are you saying that the V600 sound better than the Senn 595 from the headphone output of your old Kenwood? If so, I don't believe you. The worst you can do is that you won't notice any improvement from the V600, which would indicate a limitation in the receiver.


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I think it is also disrespectful to suggest that everyone else that like the mids on the DT880 has flawed hearing simply because you disagree. Maybe it would suffice to say that you didn't like the mids on the DT880 with your configuration and leave it at that.

I'm just saying that everyone has a different level of deafness-- everyone is deaf to some extent. NO ONE has an ear with a perfect frequency response, and the type of headphone you choose depends mostly on how deaf you are, and which frequency spectrum you're deficient in.

If you claim that your hearing IS perfect and your frequency response is 0 db all across the spectrum, then again, I don't believe you!

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Well, what amp and source are you using for your headphones?

Emu 0404 and an SR71.