[Frederose]

I really don't understand the aversion to EQs too, I just rockboxed my Ipod and, with the new EQ it sounds really good, way better than before. 

 

[MorrisL]

So everybody mentions that the 990 have an annoying treble spike (and God knows it's true!), but isn't it trivially easy to tame with an equalizer?  Isn't it easily dealt with when you bring down the 8K bar? I noticed that it takes eq rather well and I don't hear much of the music being lost as a result.

 

[Strangelove424]

  So everybody mentions that the 990 have an annoying treble spike (and God knows it's true!), but isn't it trivially easy to tame with an equalizer?  Isn't it easily dealt with when you bring down the 8K bar? I noticed that it takes eq rather well and I don't hear much of the music being lost as a result.

 
The treble spike on the 990s could probably be dealt with just as easily. Since the freq response graphs are so close, you are dealing with the same 8kHz spike. So no reason the 990 cannot work as a classical headphone for you if you prefer the extra bass thump but want to trim that treble peak.   
 
The 880s also take EQing remarkably well. I have played with some rather extreme EQ settings (which i would never actually use to listen to music) and they still didn't sound audibly distorted. Keep in mind, when you adjust one part of the frequency band you inevitably effect the rest, so boosting mids already means you reduced the treble, or by boosting bass you already reduced everything else. But that's a normal part of changing freq response, and in certain cases like the 8kHz that we want to dip down, if that inevitably brings mids up in the process all the better. I wouldn't say so much you're losing anything as choosing where to place the emphasis, or de-emphasis (which, conversely will then emphasize another part of band).    

 

[MorrisL]

Thank you, and that's how I feel about eq too. So much is written on Head Fi about how eq distorts sound and should be avoided at all cost, that you almost feel guilty for using it. It's not like we are trying to change sound across the board; just a little trim on that small treble bump. Do I really have to buy HD 600 just so I can avoid using that little eq on the DT 990? I don't think so.

 

[Strangelove424]

  Thank you, and that's how I feel about eq too. So much is written on Head Fi about how eq distorts sound and should be avoided at all cost, that you almost feel guilty for using it. It's not like we are trying to change sound across the board; just a little trim on that small treble bump. Do I really have to buy HD 600 just so I can avoid using that little eq on the DT 990? I don't think so.

Perhaps in the old days, when the analog signal itself had to be manipulated, it was easier to clip the signal, but nowadays the digital source data is manipulated before it goes to analog so the chances for distortion are much lower. You can push any signal into clipping eventually, but as you can see looking at the frequency response graph, it’s only about 4db you need to trim @ 8kHz and maybe 2db on either side to smooth out the edges (akin to a parametric equalizer). It's not a major shift, and doesn't even boost the signal. It won’t start clipping. I use my soundcard’s built-in EQ because it allows for system-wide changes. But Foobar, iTunes, hell even Power Amp for Android all have good quality EQ. 

HD600 is a nice headphone, I had it here to compare. Its tone is extremely rich, but it also has its compromises. Mid bass hump was fatiguing to me and instrument separation was not as good as Beyers. I chose the Beyers because their presentation suited my tastes better. No headphone is really perfect (especially at this price range) so I don’t see a problem with customizing any of them a bit. 

 

[witt]

To an echo an earlier sentiment in the thread, the reason I prefer not to have to EQ hps in order to "correct" the sound is because you're limiting the flexibility of those EQ options. The DT-880 is more neutral and sounds great without equalizing. What's great is that I can now play with the EQ settings to bring out interesting details in the music given the genre or recording. You're otherwise limited in this regard if you constantly have to guard against fatiguing/unnatural treble frequencies across most (if not all) of your music.

 

[MorrisL]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks a little eq won't ruin the music.
 
I wonder though what's behind the desire to hear classical music only from flat, neutral headphones (two of the biggest contenders being DT 880 and HD 600). Say you're listening to a symphony, don't you feel that even though the 880 gives a neutral, flat presentation, the 990 allows you to experience the music in more vibrant colors, especially in the way it brings out the bass - perhaps the most essential element of the performance? Bass can be quite enjoyable for classical music as well, can't it? I don't see why flat is in such demand for enjoying classical works. The chest-pounding sounds from the double bass section, the roaring trombone and all that low frequency gold is one of the most delightful sounds that a symphony orchestra produces. Add to that the wider sound stage and increased instrument separation, and you might look at DT 990 a bit more favorably when it comes to classical. 

 

[Strangelove424]

To an echo an earlier sentiment in the thread, the reason I prefer not to have to EQ hps in order to "correct" the sound is because you're limiting the flexibility of those EQ options. The DT-880 is more neutral and sounds great without equalizing. What's great is that I can now play with the EQ settings to bring out interesting details in the music given the genre or recording. You're otherwise limited in this regard if you constantly have to guard against fatiguing/unnatural treble frequencies across most (if not all) of your music.

You're essentiality saying it's bad to EQ because then you can't EQ as much. It sounds to me you are more pro-EQ than against it, but just disagree about what neutral is. The Beyers to a lot of people are bright, and the frequency response graphs kind of back that up. That doesn't mean your particular hearing has to be the same sensitivity to the same frequencies, but that's the general consensus. So I don't see a downside to eqing for a more neutral response for all around listening. Nobody is saying they lock themselves to one eq setting, but there should ideally be a neutral baseline.

I don't want to push a discussion about the 880 vs 990 differences in classical too much toward a discussion of how to make them similar (even if it's completely doable). The op started the thread to highlight sonic differences inherent to each ear phone's physical design, and has been very patient with these side discussions on eq. I'll knock it off.

 

[Strangelove424]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks a little eq won't ruin the music.

I wonder though what's behind the desire to hear classical music only from flat, neutral headphones (two of the biggest contenders being DT 880 and HD 600). Say you're listening to a symphony, don't you feel that even though the 880 gives a neutral, flat presentation, the 990 allows you to experience the music in more vibrant colors, especially in the way it brings out the bass - perhaps the most essential element of the performance? Bass can be quite enjoyable for classical music as well, can't it? I don't see why flat is in such demand for enjoying classical works. The chest-pounding sounds from the double bass section, the roaring trombone and all that low frequency gold is one of the most delightful sounds that a symphony orchestra produces. Add to that the wider sound stage and increased instrument separation, and you might look at DT 990 a bit more favorably when it comes to classical. 

The general assumption with neutral presentations, especially in classical, is that ideally your trying to get closer to the recording or the way it sounds live. Neutral is the most logical choice to get that, since we can only assume that the recording guys were after a neutral response, the mastering guys were after a neutral response, and now if you go for that neutral response you should be hearing roughly what they did. Does that mean you have to be an absolutist and stick to dead neutral? Of course not, but that's the theory anyway.

In regards to classical bass specifically, I personally don't like a mid bass hump. If you gave me the choice to emphasize the initial hit of a drum or the low rumble that came after the percussion, I'd personally choose the rumble. I enjoy having the low bass with classical because it translates to fuller sounding organs, cellos, and bass. Remember that by emphasizing one part of the band, we lose emphasis elsewhere. So a flat response in the mid/upper bass will retain details in the low bass.

There is always a lot going on in a classical mix. At any given moment, there's strings, woodwind, percussion, even choir voices creating a wide spectrum of sound. Classical listeners tend to prefer neutral because it allows them to approach those frequencies from the perspective that they are all equally important and deserve equal emphasis.

Edit: Not mid-bad hump, mid-bass hump. Damn swift key.

 

[MorrisL]

Thank you for that thoughtful response. I have to finally agree with you on this. And maybe I'll also have to admit to myself that I might indeed need to buy HD 600. (I think buying DT 880, if I already have 990 would not be a right decision, given everyone agrees that they have more similarities than differences.) 
 
The only problem then is my understanding (based on reading head fi posts) that HD 600 is not too much of an upgrade (if any at all) over DT 990 pro, which is the only headphone I own. I am a brand new audiophile. I don't know if it's worth considering an HD 800 or T1. In another post, I highlighted a review by DavidMahler (a head-fi-er with formidable credibility) who said that the $140 DT 660 is on par with the T1 in terms of overall sound quality when it comes to classical music. Now this is a big deal, even if it's half true; and deserves a more lengthy discussion. 

 

[MorrisL]

I don't want to push a discussion about the 880 vs 990 differences in classical too much toward a discussion of how to make them similar (even if it's completely doable). The op started the thread to highlight sonic differences inherent to each ear phone's physical design, and has been very patient with these side discussions on eq. I'll knock it off.

Oh, by all means, let's talk about that too. Making 880 and 990 sound similar... And it's completely doable you say? I want to know all the details, especially about making 990 sound more like an 880 (just so I know what it is I have been missing).
 
These headphones fascinate me and I don't get tired reading about them. Strange obsession, if you consider how many other interesting things there are to obsess about in this world. But, ultimately, I think it's about music. We want to maximize the enjoyment we're getting from the works we love so much. That's my justification for spending so much time reading about cans.

 

[SunshineReggae]

Doesn't really matter if it's an upgrade, technically. What matters is that they are very different, and that for that reason alone you might greatly prefer one over the other.

 

[SunshineReggae]

The general assumption with neutral presentations, especially in classical, is that ideally your trying to get closer to the recording or the way it sounds live. Neutral is the most logical choice to get that, since we can only assume that the recording guys were after a neutral response, the mastering guys were after a neutral response, and now if you go for that neutral response you should be hearing roughly what they did. Does that mean you have to be an absolutist and stick to dead neutral? Of course not, but that's the theory anyway.

In regards to classical bass specifically, I personally don't like a mid bass hump. If you gave me the choice to emphasize the initial hit of a drum or the low rumble that came after the percussion, I'd personally choose the rumble. I enjoy having the low bass with classical because it translates to fuller sounding organs, cellos, and bass. Remember that by emphasizing one part of the band, we lose emphasis elsewhere. So a flat response in the mid/upper bass will retain details in the low bass.

There is always a lot going on in a classical mix. At any given moment, there's strings, woodwind, percussion, even choir voices creating a wide spectrum of sound. Classical listeners tend to prefer neutral because it allows them to approach those frequencies from the perspective that they are all equally important and deserve equal emphasis.

Edit: Not mid-bad hump, mid-bass hump. Damn swift key.

 
Same for me. I used to get fatigued quite easily with the HD600 and could never really explain to myself why. I eventually sold it, got the DT880 and after a while I finally figured it out. I certainly understand why many people enjoy the boost in the midbass, but after getting used to a headphone that doesn't have it, it sounds bloated and exaggerated to me, and with lots of deep electronic music, it really wears your ears out. It's also a much more difficult thing to get rid of than the 880's heightened treble.
 
I see no problem with EQ either, by the way, except for maybe the fact that it may be unpractical in certain situations. Other than that, all headphones are merely interpretations of how things are supposed to sound. With EQ all you do is slightly alter that interpretation. It has very little to do with distortion, since all headphones have distortion and coloration of the sound in their own way.

 

[MorrisL]

  Doesn't really matter if it's an upgrade, technically. What matters is that they are very different, and that for that reason alone you might greatly prefer one over the other.

I can see that, but what I am really after is not variation but improvement.  If the 990's high treble is indeed easily fixed with eq, I have little interest left for headphones in the same class, in terms of quality. An improvement over sound reproduction and much else then becomes a priority over getting a different kind of sound signature.

 

[Strangelove424]

  Oh, by all means, let's talk about that too. Making 880 and 990 sound similar... And it's completely doable you say? I want to know all the details, especially about making 990 sound more like an 880 (just so I know what it is I have been missing).
 
These headphones fascinate me and I don't get tired reading about them. Strange obsession, if you consider how many other interesting things there are to abscess about in this world. But, ultimately, I think it's about music. We want to maximize the enjoyment we're getting from the works we love so much. That's my justification for spending so much time reading about cans.

 
Well, if you were going to EQ two headphones to sound alike, ones with the exact driver and very similar housing design are an ideal way to start. The frequency graph pp312 put in post #5 will be our reference. I’m going to also assume you have atleast 10 band EQ with adjustments at 30-60-120-250-500-1k-2k-4k-8k-16k Hz. To start out, keep adjustments limited to subtractive amounts. After each EQ change, adjust the overall volume again to feel comfortable. It’s not always the quantity of a certain frequency that we may find distracting or annoying, just the way it is balanced with everything else. Which brings up a major point… Only adjust one part of the band at a time. You can adjust bands that are close together but don’t bounce around the spectrum. If you adjust mid bass, listen carefully to the effect of the adjustment before tackling low bass, mids, or highs. Play with the sound, and spend a lot of time exploring the spectrum to see what instrument fall where. Where does a cello reside? How about a violin? Or organ? You’ll see it’s nuanced, and instruments can fall on a variety of different frequencies, each highlighting a different aspect of their sound. 

Ok, so let’s get specific about the DT990. You can see looking at post #5’s graph that the 60 Hz/120hz range is boosted about 4.5db over the DT880s, and that extends a bit over the neighboring frequencies. What’s also interesting is that you actually have more sub-bass than the dt880s, it’s just that the mid-bass dominates it. Once the mid bass is reduced there’s plenty of sub bass quantity there to enjoy, it’s just been masked by the mid bass. I would start by going -3db or -4db@60 Hz, -3db or -4db@120Hz, adjustment overall volume, then listen extremely carefully. Find a classical piece with lots of complexity, and perhaps an organ or cello and see if there is more texture there now. Also listen to the mids carefully, because they will pop out more, and on the highs to see if they are de-emphasized at all. Next up tackle the highs. The 990s have an 8khz peak like the 880s, but it’s even higher. As a first shot, try -4db or -5db @ 8kHz, and -2db @ 4k. Listen again, adjust the volume, and keep exploring the changes you are making from one musical piece to another. Don’t worry about finding an ideal setting for now, just try to explore the frequencies and listen to the changes each adjustment makes, what things begin to pop out or fall to the background. And last, don’t forget to have fun doing this. Unwind, maybe have a drink, and enjoy the process. We should never feel guilty for exploring music and sound, even if that means altering it a little bit.