DT 1770 Pro vs Custom Studio (or I don't get the point for mobile Hi-Res)
Aug 22, 2018 at 3:37 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 7

darkarth

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Hello,

I have a big problem with Hi-Res Listening and I would appreciate to not condem me for this. I want to understand the reason for this to find a solution.

I listen to hi-res for a few days now and I feel very disaffected by this.

Just some things about me:

I come from a 8GB Sandisk Clip and Beyerdynamic Custom One Pro. I used original files converted to mp3 320 and gained it per Mp3Gain to 99 db to make it loud enough.

Now I buyed a Fiio x5 II and the custom studio and a DT 1770 PRO to test which one I prefer. And I'm using flac gained by foobar on 89 db to reduce clipping.

So I knew the sound would be very different but not in that way.

The good thing is that everything is very clear and very detailed. But on the other hand everything sounds very dry and lifeless. The biggest problem to me is that the voice is very concentrated to the front and the music is like encircle the voice from the side and from behind. And here is the thing: If I want feel the music I have to make it so loud that high frequencies hurting in my hears. And for some songs I don't even have to make it loud to make it hurt.


I still have to buy a AMP. I will test the Fiio A5 in a few weeks. I hope some things getting better by using it and using the bass boost. But listen without amp should be still making fun, right?

What makes me really confusing is that I am not the only one who changed on a big step like this and no one seems to have that problems, too. So is something wrong with me? Do my ears have to learn to listen hi-res or what do you think?
 
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Aug 22, 2018 at 10:00 AM Post #2 of 7
Maybe the sound signature of the DT 1770 pro is too bright and analytical for your tastes. A darker and warmer pair of headphones could be more suited to you.
 
Aug 22, 2018 at 12:11 PM Post #3 of 7
First of all:

After I wrote this I found this discussion here which helped me a lot to understand a big part of my problem:

http://www.hifiheadphones.co.uk/com...etween-hi-fi-headphones-and-normal-ones.1375/

My Impressions to the headphones:

I would say the 1770 has a deep wide but also blurred bass and excessive highs but very weak mid's.

Now their are many people who say the dt 1770 is like a better custom studio and I would love it and that confused me a lot, too. Because in my ears it's the completely opposite.

The Bass hasn't that dimensions but it's harder, more defined and on point. The mid's are in a good presence, the highs are... well ... tolerable on the low gain option but still not what I'm searching for.

Both of them are very detailed and clear but because of this differences the details I can hear are different. So in the end a complete different soiundprofiles.

I also read a statement at a fiio a5 head-fi review: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/fiio-a5-portable-headphone-amplifier.21888/reviews

" The bass boost takes too wide a cut as it grabs seemingly everything below 150Hz and amplifies it too much to be reasonable. To my ear the boost bumped the low-end up a good 6db. The bigger problem is that the boost doesn’t return to 0 db until well into the mids. The bass boost creates exactly the situation most of us try to remove: Mid bass hump that bleeds into the mids. Bass-heads may find this wonderful, for the rest of us, I think you will find the bass well composed with the switch off and likely ignore the bass boost circuit entirely as I have chosen to do once I listened to what it did to the sound signature."

Sounds to me like that bass boost combined with the custom studio can turn things into what I expected...

But one thing I really like to know: On what volume Audiophile's are gonna listen their music? And how you would describe that experience on a?

If I listen to music I want to be flowed though from its whole power like a rush.of energy. Details are very welcome but not that necessary. The evenness and caressness is more important.

Now the audiophile experience seems to be more like a journey to a universe where you can study and explore the luminaries. But if you get to near to someone it get's more disagreeable. Which brings me back to the volume and the high frequencies...
 
Aug 22, 2018 at 1:13 PM Post #4 of 7
Usually, because of how hearing works, V-shaped cans sound more balanced at low volume. Since you love listening to music loud, and you are treble sensitive, I think you should go for something with a neutral bass and mids and toned down treble.
If you don't want to sell your Beyers, before buying the Fiio A5 or another amp with the bass boost feature, I'd try cutting the highs with the EQ
 
Aug 22, 2018 at 2:01 PM Post #5 of 7
The good thing is that everything is very clear and very detailed. But on the other hand everything sounds very dry and lifeless. The biggest problem to me is that the voice is very concentrated to the front...

All that sounds like its coming from excessive treble, either on its own or relative to the rest of the range, particularly the bass, which is harder to hear for a number of reasons - early roll off, lack of air space vs reference coming from subwoofers that pressurize the entire room, etc.


And here is the thing: If I want feel the music I have to make it so loud that high frequencies hurting in my hears. And for some songs I don't even have to make it loud to make it hurt.

That's due to strong treble relative to the rest of the range, plus possibly a peak somewhere that's stronger than the other treble frequencies, usually between 3000hz to 8000hz.


....and the music is like encircle the voice from the side and from behind.

Behind what? Behind the vocals? If the other instruments are being imaged behind the vocals then that's an indicator of better imaging because that's where the other instruments, particularly the percussion, are. The drummer and vocalist aren't inter-dimensional phase shifters as to occupy the same spot in front.

If you mean you can seemingly hear the sound coming from behind you, there could be some kind of surround sound DSP activated on the playback device/source, or it's recorded that way.


I still have to buy a AMP. I will test the Fiio A5 in a few weeks. I hope some things getting better by using it and using the bass boost. But listen without amp should be still making fun, right?

What makes me really confusing is that I am not the only one who changed on a big step like this and no one seems to have that problems, too. So is something wrong with me? Do my ears have to learn to listen hi-res or what do you think?

The DT1770 isn't exactly a Sennheiser HD650 or Focal Clear though.


I would say the 1770 has a deep wide but also blurred bass and excessive highs but very weak mid's.

That's mostly from the response of the headphone but can also be exacerbated by distortion when driven inadequately. I wouldn't think the latter is much of a factor though given the X5III's low output impedance and the DT1770's relatively high sensitivity, but that said I haven't really experienced anything like that since I got a Meier Cantate.2 which cleans up even my strong, sloppy-bass Superlux HD330 (when driven by my soundcard and back up portable amp).


Now their are many people who say the dt 1770 is like a better custom studio and I would love it and that confused me a lot, too. Because in my ears it's the completely opposite.

The Bass hasn't that dimensions but it's harder, more defined and on point.

If you mean the Custom One Pro has harder bass, doesn't that have variable bass setting? if one of those settings has strong upper bass without exaggerating the low bass then you'd hear a harder hit, kind of like on a Grado, although on everything below the RS2 there's a tendency for the Prestige (specifically the SR60 and SR325; not sure with the e-series version though) to have that hard hit sounding a little hollow, like if you stuffed a tom with pillows instead of hitting an actual bass drum stuffed with a pillow.


The mid's are in a good presence, the highs are... well ... tolerable on the low gain option but still not what I'm searching for.

Both of them are very detailed and clear but because of this differences the details I can hear are different. So in the end a complete different soiundprofiles.

Sounds like you should replace the DT1770 with an RS2e or Focal Clear.


I also read a statement at a fiio a5 head-fi review: https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/fiio-a5-portable-headphone-amplifier.21888/reviews

" The bass boost takes too wide a cut as it grabs seemingly everything below 150Hz and amplifies it too much to be reasonable. To my ear the boost bumped the low-end up a good 6db. The bigger problem is that the boost doesn’t return to 0 db until well into the mids. The bass boost creates exactly the situation most of us try to remove: Mid bass hump that bleeds into the mids. Bass-heads may find this wonderful, for the rest of us, I think you will find the bass well composed with the switch off and likely ignore the bass boost circuit entirely as I have chosen to do once I listened to what it did to the sound signature."

Why mess around with an analogue EQ that you can't customize when you have an X5III? It can run apps like Neutron Music Player so you can customize the width of the effect and the center frequency, plus the curve type.

If you want something that is easier to set up try Neutralizer.



Sounds to me like that bass boost combined with the custom studio can turn things into what I expected...

Or it will make the COP's bass sound like the DT1770's if the bass boost is too wide and too strong.


But one thing I really like to know: On what volume Audiophile's are gonna listen their music? And how you would describe that experience on a?

80dB to 85dB on a 1000hz sine wave (which needs to be calibrated to the same digital gain as your music).

Note that if you want to feel the music you may want to listen louder but that's going to damage your hearing. You only need a lot of power to 1) keep the sound clean for a few tracks you'll crank up for and 2) peaks won't be a problem either way.


If I listen to music I want to be flowed though from its whole power like a rush.of energy. Details are very welcome but not that necessary. The evenness and caressness is more important.

That's not smething easy to achieve since "evenness" isn't something purely objective. I can recommend a headphone that has the flattest response given current tech and most find them boring, if not even bright. Look at the HE400i - practically flat from 10hz to 1000hz, but some people will complain about the tiny peak at 3500hz and another one IIRC at 9000hz as "too bright" and "booooooooooooooooooring."

Chances are what you're looking for is the Grado RS1e, or at least the RS2e. Or given you want much weaker treble relative to the rest of the range, the HD650 on a powerful amp, if not a powerful OTL amp like the WA3 (although from a technical standpoint I'd much rather spend another $100 and get the WA6).

Or just use an equalizer app on the X5. I have my HD600 on denser and thicker HM5 angled earpads plus a low shelf EQ that slightly boosts everything below 70hz, a peak cut that trims 3500hz, and then a high shelf cut that trims everything above 3500hz. Or an LCD-2C with a Schiit Asgard or WooAudio WA6 - bass is stronger than the rest of the range but being a planar driver it does a cleaner job of reproducing the bass.
 
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Aug 22, 2018 at 3:27 PM Post #6 of 7
All that sounds like its coming from excessive treble, either on its own or relative to the rest of the range, particularly the bass, which is harder to hear for a number of reasons - early roll off, lack of air space vs reference coming from subwoofers that pressurize the entire room, etc.

I recognize that trend on electro, hiphop and metal, multiple songs, new and old ... so I think the user Qualcheduno made a good point with:

V-shaped cans sound more balanced at low volume. Since you love listening to music loud, and you are treble sensitive, I

That is something I can understand and deal with by looking/asking for relativity between trebles and midrange and bass and midrage or handle it with EQ if the Fiio A5 won't solve it alone.

Behind what? Behind the vocals? If the other instruments are being imaged behind the vocals then that's an indicator of better imaging because that's where the other instruments, particularly the percussion, are. The drummer and vocalist aren't inter-dimensional phase shifters as to occupy the same spot in front.

Behind the vocals. And yes, that makes sense and this is new to me because my former set were not able to make that difference.

My Idea of a perfect sound is like to stand right before the stage on a concert. And if I'm going to the concert I can understand the singer in front of me but I can hear and feel the basedrum through my whole body. And the vocals do not scream direclty into my ears. They are flying through the whole air. And the guitars fulfill everything with its energy.

I know that there are different mindets about a good sound. Analysing studio or live orchestra records is a different thing than going into a rock concert and it seems to be very relative to the sound you came from. That makes it hard to value what other people are saying about sound and hardware. But when people talking about the dt 1770 they are saying things I can not follow.

It sounds more like what its name is saying anyway: Way too much of 770


EDIT

I read your edits a little too late.

Just for the info. I' using the x5 II , not the x5 III.

The x5 II is without internet, android or all these things.

"Or it will make the COP's bass sound like the DT1770's if the bass boost is too wide and too strong."

The Custom Studio, not the COP.

I can say that the COS at low gain sounds good to me. It just need a little more overall volume, a little more bass and little less treble. The funny thing is that the COS has 4 bass levels. With bass boost of the A5 it changes into 8 levels in the end. So I can find out which one I like at most and if I have still treble problems, I can regulate it with the EQ. That's my idea. But thanks for your suggestions. I will test it, too.
 
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Aug 23, 2018 at 2:28 AM Post #7 of 7
I recognize that trend on electro, hiphop and metal, multiple songs, new and old ... so I think the user Qualcheduno made a good point with:
That is something I can understand and deal with by looking/asking for relativity between trebles and midrange and bass and midrage or handle it with EQ if the Fiio A5 won't solve it alone.

If I'm going to use an EQ I'd much rather reduce where the headphone is too strong than boost everything else is to catch up since boosting has a tendency to risk driver distortion since you're making the driver do what it natively can't, and especially when boosting the low end, the way the driver moves it's going to have to pump harder and longer to produce the low end.


Behind the vocals. And yes, that makes sense and this is new to me because my former set were not able to make that difference.

They're trying to reproduce how speakers sound like given a more or less ideal room.


My Idea of a perfect sound is like to stand right before the stage on a concert.

Well that's kind of why the drums are behind the vocals, ie, the vocalist and drummer aren't going to phase-shift and occupy the same space out in front, so you can hear the drummer is clearly behind the vocals.


And if I'm going to the concert I can understand the singer in front of me but I can hear and feel the basedrum through my whole body.

Scratch all my prior suggestions then and just sell everything you have, then get speakers and a subwoofer. There is no way to get that body tingling, chest kicking bass on headphones since they're not moving the air around your body, they're only moving the air right by your ears.

I'd suggest using a Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage even without a separate subwoofer, but those will cost an arm and a leg. For under $2,000, if you want a desktop system, try the KRK Rokit 6 with the KRK R10 Subwoofer. Use the change to get a DAC-HPamp-Preamp unit or an audio interface.

Alternately for a larger room system you can get two 3-way 6.5in midwoofer towers and then hold off on the sub in case they're enough for you.


And the vocals do not scream direclty into my ears.

You can either use a headphone that has angled mounts that position the drivers out front or try whatever headphone you have and push them forward towards your eyes, that way the drivers will be in front of your ears instead of aimed directly inward. Then on top of that apply EQ cuts.

However that's still not going to help you feel the bass on your body.


They are flying through the whole air. And the guitars fulfill everything with its energy.

Headphones aren't going to project a gigantic soundstage, not even the K7xx series, if you want it to sound almost exactly like an actual stage. Even if you get an AKG K1000 which is as large and deep as soundstage gets for headphones, you're still not going to get the bass on skin sensation that you're looking for.

That said, unless your listening room is the same size as the stage, well, they're not going to project the exact same size either, but again it will still be a lot larger plus you can feel the bass kick you in the chest.


I know that there are different mindets about a good sound. Analysing studio or live orchestra records is a different thing than going into a rock concert and it seems to be very relative to the sound you came from. That makes it hard to value what other people are saying about sound and hardware. But when people talking about the dt 1770 they are saying things I can not follow.

Or their hearing is very different. They can be older or have suffered high frequency hearing loss by some other cause, either way that's why they think the top end is totally fine. Alternately, you could have hyperacusis - if you hate it when something scratches a blackboard that your response is either crumble in pain or try to punch whoever was responsible, you probably have hyperacusis.


It sounds more like what its name is saying anyway: Way too much of 770

DT770 treble measures a little sharp but not as strong vs the bass region compared to the DT1770.


The x5 II is without internet, android or all these things.

OK but it still has the EQ in there, check and see what center frequencies are available.


"Or it will make the COP's bass sound like the DT1770's if the bass boost is too wide and too strong."

The Custom Studio, not the COP.

Same thing - if you overboost the bass, ie too wide and too much, any headphone can end up with muddy bass. So as much as the A5's bass boost won't do it for every headphone out there, given your DAP still has a graphic EQ, might as well try the latter first.
 

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