DSD64 Noise Issue?
Aug 24, 2021 at 12:14 AM Post #106 of 119
There are great sounding old classical recordings and there are great sounding new ones. They sound great because of the skill of the sound engineering, not because of the format. Analog tape is capable of sounding fantastic. So is digital. But if you look at the specs, digital has more dynamics and less noise and distortion than tape. That doesn't matter for playback, because analog tape is all you need for listening with human ears. But having that headroom in digital gives more flexibility in the mix for the engineers to optimize the sound.

One thing you need to remember is that the goal of a recording isn't a realistic copy of a performance. If you try to simply capture a performance, it will always be inferior to just standing in front of the orchestra and hearing them play live. Commercial recordings are engineered to optimize the sound to end up with something that sounds better than a basic capture.
do you think the old analog recordings could be improved in digital remasters?
and on the topic of recordings:

would you rather have a great conducting with poor recording or a poor conducting with a great recording?
I'm in a dilemma with conductors since I assume the older ones like Szell and Rubinstein were much better. Most of my releases are the newer ones, though.
 
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Aug 24, 2021 at 12:23 AM Post #107 of 119
Analog recordings that were originally released on LP have been much improved by digital mastering. The Bernstein Columbia recordings are a great example. A lot of them were pretty mediocre on vinyl, and the first batch of CDs sounded flat. But the complete Bernstein CD boxes sound very good. Same with the complete Szell and complete Rubinstein. There are still some flat recordings in there, but they are the fault of the original recording, not the format.

I always prioritize performance over sound quality. I have an acoustic phonograph and I play Caruso and early Stoki records on it. Fantastic! Remasters of 78rpm era recordings, particularly the acoustic era are hit and miss. Too often they are either under processed or over processed or processed incorrectly. Hi-Fi analog remastering is generally done better, which makes sense because that is where the market is.
 
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Aug 24, 2021 at 5:47 AM Post #108 of 119
do you think the old analog recordings could be improved in digital remasters?
I think AI will be used in the (near) future to improve old recordings. AI is tough how recordings with great sound are and it tries to make the old recordings sound the same.

and on the topic of recordings:

would you rather have a great conducting with poor recording or a poor conducting with a great recording?
I'm in a dilemma with conductors since I assume the older ones like Szell and Rubinstein were much better. Most of my releases are the newer ones, though.
To me it is utterly silly to think all the great conductors lived inconveniently just before recording technology had developed to a high level. High quality digital audio technology doesn't block talented future conductors and players to be born. The great artists of today just haven't developed yet the reputation the long dead ones have.

I rather take great recording - because I am an audio guy - but I also think there are tons of great modern performances out there and nowadays they record more music that wasn't recorded that much in the past. How about the music of Dietrich Buxtehude's (1637-1707) last pupil, Johann Christian Schieferdecker (1679-1732)? Good luck finding old recordings of his music because in the old days they where busy recording Beethoven, Brahms and Mahler.

Most of my classical music recordings are from the digital era. I have some recordings from the 70's and 60's, but I am reluctant to go beyond that into the mono era, althou I do have a few CDs of "historical" recordings as curiosities to know how they sound. I actually like the way old analog recording techniques distort the sound of violin, makes it soft and velvety, but many other instruments such as piano sounds really crappy/ugly in the old recordings.

Classical music listeners keep talking about Szell like he was a semi-God. I don't think I have ever even heard his conducting. Someday I might listen just to know what the fuzz is about.
 
Aug 24, 2021 at 11:43 PM Post #111 of 119
To me it is utterly silly to think all the great conductors lived inconveniently just before recording technology had developed to a high level.

I'm going to shoot past the absolute of "ALL the great conductors' and address the general point. In the early 20th century, certain types of music and certain performance styles existed that just don't exist today. For instance, try to find a current conductor who works like Stokowski. Also, certain types of music were more prevalent and popular in the early 20th century. The most obvious example of that is opera. Opera was everywhere and ordinary people played it on the piano in their home, sung arias themselves, and had phonograph records of Caruso, Galli-Curci and Melchior. These singers were of the highest calibre because opera was a big deal all over the world. Opera performers travelled and performed for huge audiences. There was competition between performers to excel. The standard was clearly higher than today when opera companies are going bankrupt and great singers are going into other fields of singing. Another factor is orchestras. Every town had a a live orchestra. Many had dozens of orchestras playing all kinds of music in hotels, nightclubs and theaters. Think of the number of great orchestras you see mentioned on early recordings. Only a fraction of them still exist, and several of the ones that do are a shadow of their former selves. Again, symphonies today are going bankrupt. There are great musicians, but it is a lot harder to make a living as a professional musician today.

Now, if you want to qualify your statement to say that it's utterly silly to say that period performance baroque music was better in the past than today, I would totally agree with you. There wasn't a lot of that back in the early 20th century. There is more deep catalog repertoire and avant garde music being played now too. But in core repetoire it's hard to argue that any conductors today are the equals of the big three... Stokowski, Toscanini and Furtwangler, not to mention Walter or Monteaux. The amazing thing is that all of these conductors were working at about the same time. Today we get recordings of Beethoven symphonies because they always sell. But there isn't a lot of difference between the interpretations. But Stoki's Beethoven was nothing like Toscanini's and Furtwangler's performances varied wildly from one to another.

Recording had a profound impact on the performance practices of classical music. It encouraged researched perfectionism over bold experimentation. It brought a small number of orchestras into everyone's homes, rather than every town having their own orchestra. It began the decline of the superstar conductor. And since a single performance could be played any time any place, it reduced the amount of live performances, thereby narrowing the field.

There are historical recordings for which there is no match today. And there are great modern recordings. Generally, they are different types of music so you can't compare them. In my collection, I have great recordings from 1900 to the present day. When I choose a CD to buy, it isn't because it's digitally recorded or an SACD or stereo, it's because of the performers and performances. I choose the best from all eras. And I have an understanding of different interpretations. I don't have a rigid idea of what a "proper" performance of Beethoven's 9th is. When there is a proper way to make music, I think you can safely say music is dead.

Classical music listeners keep talking about Szell like he was a semi-God. I don't think I have ever even heard his conducting. Someday I might listen just to know what the fuzz is about.

Szell was very similar to current conductors in that he stuck closely to the instructions in the score and didn't allow himself to elaborate on it. Toscanini was the first to do that, but he had an energy that was very unique. The opposite of that approach is Stokowski who was called a magician because he would sculpt the performance with his hands as he performed. He wasn't afraid to go off the score and interpret for himself. That is what is missing today. In the past, the composer and performer were equals. Both brought something to the music and it wasn't complete if they didn't add something of themselves. Today that is allowed for instrumentalists (following the lead of Glenn Gould) but that isn't allowed for conductors any more. They have to stick to the script... the score: nothing more, nothing less. That change was the result of the impact of recording. Everyone now looks for a "definitive" performance they can capture on disk and play over and over. In the past it was about an etherial ephemeral performance that captured some special aspect or mood in the music that had never been expressed before. I miss that.

Historical recordings form an ocean of great music that doesn't exist in any other form. If you limit yourself to just modern recordings, you are doing yourself a disservice, just as if you only watched movies since Star Wars or read books since the 1970s. Generally, the people who say, "Who needs a historical recording of a symphony you can get on CD?" don't know much about historical recordings.
 
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Aug 25, 2021 at 12:56 PM Post #112 of 119
Historical recordings form an ocean of great music that doesn't exist in any other form. If you limit yourself to just modern recordings, you are doing yourself a disservice, just as if you only watched movies since Star Wars or read books since the 1970s. Generally, the people who say, "Who needs a historical recording of a symphony you can get on CD?" don't know much about historical recordings.
Our lives are limited so we must limit things no matter how much we appreciate historical recordings. I am constantly expanding my horizon, but in within a few decades I'm dead. I have some historical recordings (dating back to 1926, see the attachment) and I do enjoy some pre-70's movies so I am much less limiting myself than those who only listen to modern pop music and watch marvel superhero movies.

You sound like someone who thinks your choices in life are less limiting than the choices of other people. How do you know whose choices are the least limiting? Being stuck on Stokowski, Toscanini and Furtwängler sounds limiting to me, but what do I know? I don't have their performances.

historical.jpg
 
Aug 25, 2021 at 5:23 PM Post #113 of 119
Well it's fine to limit yourself, but you may not want to think that things you choose to know little to nothing about are utterly silly!

I already pointed out that my collection includes classical music and opera recordings from 1900 to today. I also listen to great pop vocals, rock from jump blues to today, soul, country & western, latin, jazz of all kinds from ragtime to modern, 1920s dance bands, tin pan alley, movie soundtracks, world music, folk the blues... etc. etc. etc. I don't choose to limit myself. I'd rather hear the best of everything than everything of one tiny sliver of the world. I always make an effort to expand my horizons and extend my frame of reference. I don't just do this with music. I do it with art and movies as well. I wish I could read books like that too, but I can't. I love humanity's creativity. I can't think of a better way to use my time than to try to absorb as much of it as I can. It makes me understand other people better.

How did I get where I am? I sought out musicians, artists and musicologists who knew a lot about things I knew little about, and I asked them to introduce me to things I didn't know about. I still do that every week, and I am always involved in several research projects at a time. The things you know about are fine and good. But the things you don't know about but really should are the most important.
 
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Aug 26, 2021 at 7:19 AM Post #114 of 119
How did I get where I am? I sought out musicians, artists and musicologists who knew a lot about things I knew little about, and I asked them to introduce me to things I didn't know about. I still do that every week, and I am always involved in several research projects at a time. The things you know about are fine and good. But the things you don't know about but really should are the most important.
Good for you being born the greatest and most perfect human being ever! For many others of us life is much more confusing and frustrating experience. I have to live my life my way because I am me and not you or anybody else. Your life would have probably been very different had you been born where I was born, Helsinki, Finland and my life would have been very different had I been born in Hollywood, USA, or wherever under Bethelemic stars you where born...

...Instead of letting other people dictate me what to like, I have found out myself what I like and often it is different from what other people like. I don't like Beethoven because it is Beethoven and everyone around me says he rules. I like his music (some of it more than other stuff), because Beethoven has earned my appreciation with his music just as more obscure composers (e.g. Louis-Nicolas Clérambault) have. As you said yourself, opera used to be extremely popular 100 years ago and is less popular today. I see two main reasons for this:

1) Opera as an art-form used to be a lot what movies are today: Acted story-telling with sound/music.
2) Opera is typically among the more entertaining side of "classical music" and the forms of 20th/21st century popular music has taken its place. Instead of Caruso people are listening to Bruno Mars and instead of Maria Callas people are listening to Ariana Grande.

That's not to say opera is totally obsolete. Of course it is not. I am just giving reasons as to why it is not as popular as it used to be.

How did I get where I am? By making lots of mistakes and sometimes even learning from them and sometimes even doing something right. I am not that special, althou I am eccentric. My MBTI personality type is mostly INTJ, but also INTP. Learning about this lately has helped me a lot to understand why my life has been this way. Why I spent time so effortlessly inside my own head in my "inner world" thinking stuff (INTx) and why I am socially so clumsy. Why I sort of have goals (INTJ), but I also procrastinate a lot (INTP). It also explains why it is difficult for me to express my feelings, why my senses are sensitive and why I am physically clumsy and not into sports. It explains why other people find me cold/robotic and why I come out often insensitive and why I feel misunderstood. I am the mid-point of Nikola Tesla (INTJ) and Albert Einstein (INTP), but without their towering genius and intellect. I am smart enough to understand how crossfeed improves head-phone spatiality and how digital audio works, but not smart enough to achieve anything great in my life. I don't have the genius in me to make headphones sound exactly like speakers for everybody. The best strategy in life (to maximize happiness) for me seems to be to spent as much of it as possible inside my own head (where I can build rich mental universes) while trying to manage somehow in the outer World interacting with other people, which is difficult for me because INTJ and INTP are the two most introverted personality types of all. The most important thing is to accept myself as I am and stop the self-pity caused by struggles in life. Everybody struggles in life, just in their own way dictated by their personality types.
 
Aug 26, 2021 at 7:23 PM Post #115 of 119
This is a discussion forum where people talk about things. Nothing I say is intended to insult you or belittle you. I'm just sharing how I think about things and what I do. There's absolutely no reason for you to take anything I said personally and lash out defensively like this. If you can't chat casually and insist on getting hyper emotional over things I say, I'll just blow by your comments. If I read them, I'll be tempted to reply to them, and that will just set you off again. I get the feeling you'd rather just speak for your own benefit, not to actually engage in the give and take of a discussion. That's fine. You might find that you won't get mad as much if you don't reply to my comments.
 
Aug 26, 2021 at 9:40 PM Post #116 of 119
A bit off topic, but a question for those of you that still play 78s.

Back in the day before the recording industry settled on the RIAA standard for emphasis/deemphasis equalisation, the labels had their own equalisation curves. This was reflected with many early phonograms having equalisation settings for different labels, eg RCA, Decca, Victor etc.

So how do you compensate, if at all, for the various standards when playing back your 78s (or early LPs for that matter)?
 
Aug 26, 2021 at 10:55 PM Post #117 of 119
Not just that... the speed varied from label to label too! There are phono preamps that have response calibration settings for the various labels, but a lot of that is just guesstimates. I've found several records from the same label that all sound different because they were recorded at different facilities (New York as opposed to Chicago as opposed to portable recording rigs sent out in the field) or at different times (1933 sounds entirely different than 1938). Often the hall they recorded in had more to do with the response than the calibration. To make matters worse, in the acoustic era there were no standards at all. It was all tweaked by ear mechanically.

The way I deal with it is to bring the direct output from the turntable (no RIAA compensation) into a preamp where I raise the level to line level (volume levels can vary widely too). From there it goes through a RANE 32 band graphic equalizer. Using headphones, I tame the wolf tones and get the balance close enough for government work. I use that EQ to do all the noise reduction. (Sometimes a little bit of high end boost helps the declicker.) When the track is clean, I monitor with speakers and fine tune the response using the digital parametric EQ in the sound editing program. I usually export a bunch of slightly different takes until I arrive at the one I like. My goal at that point is to try to get a natural sound for the voices and instruments.

It's especially hard when you are working with a symphony that spans 10 or 12 sides. Each segment is performed and recorded separately, and the sound at the center groove can be quite different than the sound at the outer groove. In the WWII era, they recorded to 33 1/3 12 inch lacquers with multiple segments just the right length to fit on a 78. When LPs were introduced, they used these to create LP sides by transcribing them DJ style live. There were some rugged joins on early LPs.

Digital editing makes editing a lot smoother. With practice, I got really good at tapping out the beat to find the perfect edit point and then doing layers of corrections to feather the EQ across the side breaks to match. I can post a few of my transfers for you to listen to if you are interested.
 
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Aug 27, 2021 at 11:40 PM Post #118 of 119
Cheers. I only asked because I have an old record player with the label selection function.

Interestingly, this question was once posed on the Hoffman site and Steve responded saying it is not worth worrying about as the different curves do not affect the sound in any material way compared to using RIAA.
 
Aug 28, 2021 at 1:36 AM Post #119 of 119
HUH?! He says to use RIAA? He doesn't know what he's talking about. RIAA is totally different than early 78 curves, particularly acoustic era and early electricals. Even very early LPs have a different curve. The whole point of the RIAA curve was to standardize an industry that was all over the place. Maybe Hofmann only knows LPs. 78s are a specialized topic.

The ARSC are the authority on stuff like this. Here's a general article on it. http://www.arsc-audio.org/journals/v20/v20n1p14-23.pdf

I was lucky enough to get a personal lesson in equalizing acoustic records from the guy who synced up the two Ellington records to create a 1932 stereo recording. He said that he believed that groove shapes and EQ curves varied widely and drastically. He had over a dozen different stylii of different shapes and sizes that he swapped in and out. And he told me that he equalized by going through the record in passes, starting at a low volume and looking for wolf tones to tame. He would go through over and over four or five times, each time a little louder until he got it as loud as he could stand. By that point he was refining the timbre of the instruments. He could EQ a record in six or seven minutes, but he said that he had gotten that fast by doing it a million times.
 
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