[Big G]

Albums featuring known right handed drummers, produced with the drums imaging mirrored, I.E - with the High hat imaging to the left...and drum rolls from left to right (floor toms to right)

example, tool lateralus, 10,000 days, Opeth Ghost reveries....etc etc

But it often changes from one song to the next....

Is it artistic license, or an oversight by the recording engineers. I know they arent live recordings, but they should be able to get this right.

Im a stickler for imaging accuracy, my home system can project a life size holographic image with decent recordings, truly engaging, but I get distracted by such things.

and before some sarcastic twit tells me to wire my system correctly...this is on 3 different systems...hehe

 

[Rempert]

Well, *accurate* imaging would have all drums in a single drum set imaged together. The idea that someone in the audience could distinguish the location of a hi-hat from a bass drum and snare in the same kit is laughable. So I would say that any noticeable imaging whatsoever is artistic liscence. In that case, should you have the listener in the position of the drummer (hi-hat on the left, floor toms on the right for most drummers), or should you have it the opposite, as if the listener is leaning on the back of the bass drum facing the drummer? I guess either should be fine, since they both sound cool, and neither is realistic to any live listening situation. Then it doesn't really even matter if it switches from song to song, unless those songs have a seemless transition.

 

[Big G]

are you saying if you are standing front centre stage of an acoustic concert facing the musicians, you shouldn't be able to locate the origins of the separate drum strikes and cymbal locations???and that all of the drums / cymbals should occupy one single location?

To not be able to locate the origins of a sound is a worry, sure if its a heavily amplified stadium concert the origins of the drum / cymbal hits will be lost, but any smaller size concert it is clearly audible, and not laughable.

I much prefer it if albums are produced in a way that depicts the drum kit as if you are an audience member...why on earth would you want to have the drum kit image as if you are the drummer? I guess it may help you rock out to some air drumming on the dash of your car.

To me they should image to occupy a realistic space in relation to the size of the projected image - instruments to their left - right.

My speaker based system renders everything in a 3d sense, that the cymbals are higher physically, and the floor toms are down low and to the side of the drummer. (On good recordings of course).

 

[Aman]

The specific recordings you mentioned all have the drums in the very front of the image, simply having different drums off to different sides of the sound stage. When one does a drum fill from snare, to tom, to tom, to tom, to cymbal, it should not seem as if the drums are going from left to right. It should seem as if there is a VERY slight movement in between the different locations of each sound, but that the centralized area of the sound should stay the same.

Most jazz recordings got this right. Most all contemporary recordings have the drums disgustingly imaged front and center, with HUGE differences between the locations of the drums.

Definitely artistic license.

 

[EhJayKim]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big G are you saying if you are standing front centre stage of an acoustic concert facing the musicians, you shouldn't be able to locate the origins of the separate drum strikes and cymbal locations???and that all of the drums / cymbals should occupy one single location? To not be able to locate the origins of a sound is a worry, sure if its a heavily amplified stadium concert the origins of the drum / cymbal hits will be lost, but any smaller size concert it is clearly audible, and not laughable.

If you can detect where each drum/cymbal is then I think you must have some sort of super-power. Maybe if you were standing with your feet against the head of the bass drum you could tell if it was the ride or the crash on the left or the right, but from even a small distance, it would be far more difficult to tell.

If someone were standing on a stage with two basketballs while you were in the audience and he dropped them, could you tell which hand each was from?

-A

 

[Big G]

of course you can localise sounds from their point of origin, otherwise the human race would have never survived the prehistoric period, as we'd have all fallen prey to Dinousaurs...unable to localise our attackers direction etc..lol

My brother is a drummer, so I guess its grained into my memory where each sound originates from on a drum kit, its all relative to the distance you are from the sounds point of origin and how far apart the sources are.

If your 50 meters away from the drum kit, of course you wont tell, but in a small intimate venue - pub / jazz club, I think you can.

 

[s m @]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big G why on earth would you want to have the drum kit image as if you are the drummer? I guess it may help you rock out to some air drumming on the dash of your car.

^This made me laugh hard. Of course almost all recordings are made to be as if you're watching (and facing) the band, but I don't think too many are necessarily trying to exactly mimic the sound of a huge speaker column in an ernormodome, either. Although that might explain a few common complaints about modern recordings if they were. Usually the drum kit occupies a fairly big space in the 'soundstage', and individual pieces occupy smaller spaces within that. The differences can be subtle sometimes, but they're almost always there. Sorry I can't really answer the OP's question, though.

 

[Big G]

I guess the question is whether its the bands artistic licence, or the producers poor attention to detail that leads bands to release songs with drums the wrong way around, or a Kit that is as wide as the stage..


I have some recordings of just a single drummer, from one of the Focal.jm.lab test discs, that when you close your eyes you swear the kit is in the room. Perfectly poportioned, everything in its place. truly holographic like you can reach out and touch it. I played this to my brother (the drummer) and he freaked!

I wish all recordings imaged like this, but it must be hard to reproduce a studio recording with separate mikes for each drum / cymbal and create a 3d holographic image, I guess the best we can hope for is a 2d left right pan?

 

[Rempert]

Horizontally, we are talking about say... 6" or so from the hi-hat to snare and tom 1. 6" more to bass drum. 6" more to tom 2. 6" more to rightmost cymbal and floor toms. Now the sound isn't directional like a trumpet; it's bouncing all over the place (I played drumset for a high school production of Godspell in which they literally built a fort of foam around the piano player and me to try to dampen our sound). Unless it's Ringo's All-Stars, the drum set will probably be at the back of the stage.

The drums are being mic'd up close, EQ'd separately during mixing... really there is nothing realistic about it in most cases.

There is certainly nothing realistic about the drum panning on the song "Lateralus", unless you have your speakers very close to each other and sit a long ways back. The kit stretches from one edge of the stage to the other. Either he has very long forearms or he is using broomsticks instead of drumsticks. So the hi-hat being left of center doesn't really bother me, even as a drummer. They are just going for a cool sound, not a simulation of any sort of live performance.

 

[Rempert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big G I guess the question is whether its the bands artistic licence, or the producers poor attention to detail that leads bands to release songs with drums the wrong way around, or a Kit that is as wide as the stage..

I'd split the difference and say it is probably the producer's artistic liscence in most cases.

 

[Big G]

Thanks rempert, I think youve pretty much summed up what I was thinking..

 

[3DCadman]

I've got a Sterophile test CD (not sure which one), where they used a high end mike technique which made the drums **very** realistic sounding. To the point where you could close your eyes, and imagine where every drum, cymbal, etc was in space in front of you.

Of course, you need a good rig (read:speakers) to do this. I used B&W Nautilus 804's, which do that very well.

 

[Sleestack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3DCadman Of course, you need a good rig (read:speakers) to do this. I used B&W Nautilus 804's, which do that very well.

You also need proper room acoustics or your imaging will be off.