Driver speed, BA vs dynamic

[dazzerfong]

Not sure I agree with lower THD in the low end on BA, or the mid bass hump on DD(I already gave my thoughts on "faster"). Once again, if you compare apple to apple, looking for similar sizes and same sealed designs, you won't get that.
On the pairs I have, even within the Ety line, their DD IEMs don't have a mid bass hump like many full size DD headphones do(those tiny Ety drivers don't seem to have a mid bass resonance in the first place, not even a trace of it in impedance/phase measurements), and THD is as low or lower than on my ER4SR.

The person you're replying to exists almost purely to espouse the virtues of his Etymotics ER2's - look at his post history, and you'll see that he's not so much bothering with the science of it over validation of his choices.

 

[Redcarmoose]

The person you're replying to exists almost purely to espouse the virtues of his Etymotics ER2's - look at his post history, and you'll see that he's not so much bothering with the science of it over validation of his choices.

That’s 1/2 of all the responses on Head-Fi.

 

[Blackwoof]

Not sure I agree with lower THD in the low end on BA, or the mid bass hump on DD(I already gave my thoughts on "faster"). Once again, if you compare apple to apple, looking for similar sizes and same sealed designs, you won't get that.
On the pairs I have, even within the Ety line, their DD IEMs don't have a mid bass hump like many full size DD headphones do(those tiny Ety drivers don't seem to have a mid bass resonance in the first place, not even a trace of it in impedance/phase measurements), and THD is as low or lower than on my ER4SR.

I'm wondering if the ER2SE is based on their DD based research IEMs because I'm sure they said had one for the rare time time <0.1% at 95db matterd in the ER4 thread. I've never had a DD IEM as clean as the ER2SE imo. lol

 

[IgeNeLL]

It depends on the tunning capability of engineering.
There are nothings like: BA sound or DD sound.
You can make a DD sound quick, less decay.
You can make BA sound long decay(like DD sound every one says).

 

[mobbaddict]

I wouldn't say that BA sound is as fast as electrostats and planars, not on those I've heard at least. I haven't heard etymotics but I've used phonaks for years and heard pricey stuff like SEM9 and W60. To me there is still a gap between those technologies and I have yet to hear a BA iem that I would qualify as delivering a high-end level of detail. As a matter of fact the planar LCDi4 and my Stax SR-003 impress me more than any BA/DD iem.

However I would agree that BA sound more similar to electrostats and planars than dynamic drivers. They just sound more effortless and polite, rather than shouty and in your face as DD can sound.

 

[bigshot]

What does effortless and polite mean in relation to the production of sound? I understand it in terms of your perception of the sound, but that is subjective, not something headphones produce.

 

[mobbaddict]

What does effortless and polite mean in relation to the production of sound? I understand it in terms of your perception of the sound, but that is subjective, not something headphones produce.

Hard to translate with technical words without having the knowledge but I think it has to do with the speed of balanced armatures which to my ears is very close to electrostats and planars. Maybe it is the decay or the attack. Probably something that could be proved with measurements. And polite because of the sounds is more diffused and probably less dynamic too. Maybe it's just how most balanced armatures iems are conceived.

 

[Blackwoof]

I wouldn't say that BA sound is as fast as electrostats and planars, not on those I've heard at least. I haven't heard etymotics but I've used phonaks for years and heard pricey stuff like SEM9 and W60. To me there is still a gap between those technologies and I have yet to hear a BA iem that I would qualify as delivering a high-end level of detail. As a matter of fact the planar LCDi4 and my Stax SR-003 impress me more than any BA/DD iem.

However I would agree that BA sound more similar to electrostats and planars than dynamic drivers. They just sound more effortless and polite, rather than shouty and in your face as DD can sound.

More like 90% imo, But going from DD to BA may as well assume their fastest thing around. I've yet to have a Dynamic headphone match the ER4 or other BA stuff for speed/detail. I agree the BA sound = Estat/planar which sounds like a clean window while DDs sound dirty in comparison, Even the ER2SE i have sound bit coloured vs the ER3/ER4.

I use the Etymotic ER4SR & ER3SE as a example since they push BA drivers harder than other brands in my view. Since they sound faster than few other BA headphones i had in the past, Which seem to try to mimic DD decay/attack which sounded odd to the ER4PT i had in 2018

 

[KeithPhantom]

Now my question is: what is "speed" in terms of transducers? For what I know, the transducer outputs the desired frequency or fails to do it from the beginning. Also, timbre nuances can be measured in a simple FR graph, and adding other types of graphs will only support their characteristics.

 

[Blackwoof]

Now my question is: what is "speed" in terms of transducers? For what I know, the transducer outputs the desired frequency or fails to do it from the beginning. Also, timbre nuances can be measured in a simple FR graph, and adding other types of graphs will only support their characteristics.

My view is how well can it reproduce fast complex audio. BAs have stiffer diaphragms while DDs are more loose. The point i got from Reddit is that full range BA's by tuning can gain only 2db by venting. They can handle the SPL of say 10db but that means they would need EQ/DSP in the cable like ER4S style.

I think in fast music face off's why DDs choke is that the driver has to much flex causing poor treble performance. Speakers fix this by using 2 drivers.

 

[KeithPhantom]

My view is how well can it reproduce fast complex audio. BAs have stiffer diaphragms while DDs are more loose. The point i got from Reddit is that full range BA's by tuning can gain only 2db by venting. They can handle the SPL of say 10db but that means they would need EQ/DSP in the cable like ER4S style.

I think in fast music face off's why DDs choke is that the driver has to much flex causing poor treble performance. Speakers fix this by using 2 drivers.

You are talking about driver break-up and resonance frequencies. For larger dynamic drivers this is an issue, not because of "speed", it is due to distortion. Better behavior of the driver yields lower distortion, thus a stiffer driver. Also, larger transducers have a hard time stopping motion (the hard part of designing a transducer is to make it stop).

Speakers use multiple drivers because larger drivers have worse behavior characteristics in terms of break-up, resonances, ringing, and distortion. The use of specialized drivers helps to make up for these issues, but headphones and IEMs have smaller drivers, which are better behaved and do not need to be multi-driver.

Even though there could be differences, "speed" can be determined by FR and decay/CSD graphs rather easily. They aren't "faster" or "slower", they produce the same frequencies, but the FR interpretation you brain gives to those signals is what makes you think about speed. Subjectively, my LCD-2 feel even more congested than my HD 6XX, and the Senns are regarded as "slow" in the audiophile community. If you see the CSD/impulse response of the HD 6XX, you will see that they react immediately to the impulse and they decay fast, so impressions of "slowness" are attributed to other factors other than "speed". Finally, the silver screened HD 650/6XX have one of the most beautiful treble responses in any headphones (according to Solderdude's measurements), and I experience this every day I listen to them.

 

[Blackwoof]

Even though there could be differences, "speed" can be determined by FR and decay/CSD graphs rather easily. They aren't "faster" or "slower", they produce the same frequencies, but the FR interpretation you brain gives to those signals is what makes you think about speed. Subjectively, my LCD-2 feel even more congested than my HD 6XX, and the Senns are regarded as "slow" in the audiophile community. If you see the CSD/impulse response of the HD 6XX, you will see that they react immediately to the impulse and they decay fast, so impressions of "slowness" are attributed to other factors other than "speed". Finally, the silver screened HD 650/6XX have one of the most beautiful treble responses in any headphones (according to Solderdude's measurements), and I experience this every day I listen to them.

oratory said the "slowness" could be from something simple as it bassier tuning.

Speakers use multiple drivers because larger drivers have worse behavior characteristics in terms of break-up, resonances, ringing, and distortion. The use of specialized drivers helps to make up for these issues, but headphones and IEMs have smaller drivers, which are better behaved and do not need to be multi-driver.

Yep, Multi driver IEMs are a gimmick. The "BA bass" that the ER4S seems mostly to be from people hearing flat bass for the first time. Seem to ignore that it driver being stiffer adding back volume vent dosen't give big bass gains(ER4XR), It can handle the same SPL for bass as dynamics but needs EQ to do it. If say the ER4XR was tuned for +6db instead of it's 2db boost.

Instead we get people hyping the Hybrids/Single DD with +12mm driverss or BA IEMs with 2 ~ 18 drivers. While the ER4SR can rate <0.4% on many versions.

 

[dazzerfong]

oratory said the "slowness" could be from something simple as it bassier tuning.

Yep, Multi driver IEMs are a gimmick. The "BA bass" that the ER4S seems mostly to be from people hearing flat bass for the first time. Seem to ignore that it driver being stiffer adding back volume vent dosen't give big bass gains(ER4XR), It can handle the same SPL for bass as dynamics but needs EQ to do it. If say the ER4XR was tuned for +6db instead of it's 2db boost.

We get it, Etymotics are the epitome of IEMs, and their bass is ruler-flat. One thing you forgot to mention: jacking up the bass increases the distortion.

Keith's comparison doesn't work because BA is a technology unique to IEMs. One thing that makes BAs relatively unique is the fact that the drivers are more or less made by a few main companies, with IEM manufacturers buying them mostly as-is from the supplier. If manufacturers want to experiment, one avenue is to driver stack and this works relatively successfully because BAs are small to begin with. Stacking dynamic drivers almost never work well as it requires a very distinct design philosophy from the get-go.

That being said, multi drive IEMs can be a gimmick. Look at KZ's multi BA drive range: 8+ BAs stuffed into a driver with zero consideration for damping and crossover.

Despite my cynical view on Etymotics, they actually did go through significant lengths to counteract the inherent limitations of BAs. Check here for a discussion with one of Etymotic's engineer: https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/innerfidelity-podcast-no10-dave-friesema-etymotic

 

[Blackwoof]

Despite my cynical view on Etymotics, they actually did go through significant lengths to counteract the inherent limitations of BAs. Check here for a discussion with one of Etymotic's engineer: https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/innerfidelity-podcast-no10-dave-friesema-etymotic

That because BA's were made for hearing aids, Etymotic more or less forced knowles to invent a new gen versions. The ER4's driver was 6mm(17Khz) vs the 1.5mm(8KHz).

We get it, Etymotics are the epitome of IEMs, and their bass is ruler-flat. One thing you forgot to mention: jacking up the bass increases the distortion.

So show me proof of a ER4SR reaching, >1% on bass with a +10db 110Hz boost. On APO which is parametric a -10db gain should stop 0db clippping. Instead of calling people you disagree with fanboys because of crap from another thread?. So a Estat user wrong because he backed me up on Speed/detail.

Are you 15 or just being weak troll.

 

[dazzerfong]

That because BA's were made for hearing aids, Etymotic more or less forced knowles to invent a new gen versions. The ER4's driver was 6mm(17Khz) vs the 1.5mm(8KHz).



So show me proof of a ER4SR reaching, >1% on bass with a +10db 110Hz boost. On APO which is parametric a -10db gain should stop 0db clippping. Instead of calling people you disagree with fanboys because of crap from another thread?. So a Estat user wrong because he backed me up on Speed/detail.

Are you 15 or just being weak troll.

On 110 Hz? I thought we're talking about sub-bass here, around 50Hz.

Unless you consistently keep the rest of your listening 10 dB quieter, you will get more distortion. That's just how anything works: louder it is, more distortion it gets. We're not talking about clipping here, which is less the driver and more on the actual source being distorted. That being said, distortion isn't necessarily bad, but saying it's the epitome is a bit exaggerated.

I personally am a fan of bumping the sub-bass in IEMs to get more of a sub feeling. Consistently though, it was obvious that many BAs cannot get that tactile feeling. Hell, to be fair, many dynamics couldn't either, because bumping up the sub-bass meant that poorly-controlled drivers will vibrate at higher frequencies (as they simply couldn't vibrate that slowly whilst sounding good).

Also have no idea what you're talking about WRT the 6mm driver: those are dynamic drivers. Unless I'm in the wrong, isn't the ER4S (and XR) BAs? And correct me if I'm wrong again, but aren't Sonions being used for the ER4XR, not Knowles? I originally thought Sonion designed a custom driver for Etys, but they didn't.

Whatever the case, I don't think either side has enough proof or evidence either way. Either way, all comes down to whatever the designer does, and less on what components they use.

Oh, and why you're a fanboy: look at your post history. I'll say 70% of your posts involve Etymotics. Not that it's bad, but it does open you up to snide remarks about it, especially when it's incredibly obvious.