dreaming of high end
May 13, 2023 at 7:23 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 19

monf3307

100+ Head-Fier
Joined
Apr 14, 2023
Posts
174
Likes
246
Location
merica
Had HDR-V6 for literal decades, and was happy with. Got Beyerdynamic DT 900 Prox a few months back, and wow I guess headphones do get nicer than $50 Sonys!

Curious what the big-dollar players bring to the table. Focal, Hifiman, Audeze all on my radar. Heck, some of them are pieces of art regardless of what they sound like. Probably getting senn HD650 as a classic reference point, curious how much "signature sound" or company/family attributes stick from model to model. Apparently Focal is crazy clear up top and tight on bass? I have read less about hifiman or audeze.

Considering Elegia to get a feel at a reasonable price though Clear MG looks like a "dream" choice for me. Ananda and LCD-2 also on my mind.
 
May 13, 2023 at 10:29 AM Post #2 of 19
Can you listen first? I wasn't able too in 2016-2020 when I bought 14 cans. I have 5 left , (3 I use a lot, 2 are used seldom) rest are gone. I hesitate to name them, because its my taste and don't want to bias you.

If you can't preview. What's your taste in music? budget? What do you listen for, what annoys you?
 
Last edited:
May 13, 2023 at 10:31 AM Post #3 of 19
The TOTLs all have their strengths and weaknesses but as you move up, you generally get better technicalities including detail retrieval, dynamics, timbre and tonality. But sometimes a flagship might do certain things extraordinarily, but fall short in something else. Some brands have a very distinct house sound, some do not.

If you know your preferred tuning, you're one step ahead of many. Most of us just listen to different headphones until we find what we like... it gets expensive really fast.
 
May 13, 2023 at 10:50 AM Post #4 of 19
I've managed to put a pretty good system together though there are still a couple of things that I'd love to get. A CD Player for one. I recently did a listening test with a very good CD Player and one a streaming system--Streamer/DAC that was also very good and the CD Player proved the better of the two! :O Shock? Yep. So, I'm looking for a good CD Player now and very much open to suggestions.

I'm also biding my time for the STAX SR-X9000. I got the Abyss AB1266 and it is very good, though it does need an amp with more than a couple of watts to be at its best. I have the HeadAmp MkII (6W). So I won't be getting rid of the Abyss anytime soon. But there's something about electrostatics, with a good amp. I have HeadAmp's Blue Hawaii Special Edition which is also really good and the STAX SR-009S and it is very good too. But after listening to the X9000 it is definitely time for an upgrade! It's so much better.

(the smutch in the back is incense :)

20230509_204113.jpg
 
May 13, 2023 at 1:42 PM Post #5 of 19
The TOTLs all have their strengths and weaknesses but as you move up, you generally get better technicalities including detail retrieval, dynamics, timbre and tonality. But sometimes a flagship might do certain things extraordinarily, but fall short in something else. Some brands have a very distinct house sound, some do not.

If you know your preferred tuning, you're one step ahead of many. Most of us just listen to different headphones until we find what we like... it gets expensive really fast.

100% with this. Ultrasones sound like Ultrasones. Many Hifiman same thing. Same with Audeze. Same with Beyer - lol that house treble. Even Sennheiser family for the most part. But yeah, lots of brand house sounds to try to figure it out what sounds good to you. Then, once you find that house sound you love, it's hard because all of these companies have so many models to try out to find out your favorites!
 
Last edited:
May 13, 2023 at 6:23 PM Post #6 of 19
You get worse ergonomics and a depleted bank account. Sounds good, right? Sign me up.

Also, friends will look at you weird and the more you talk about audio stuff the less friends you'll have.

And if you ever thought "life is great, but what I could really use is permanent ringing in my ears" this is a pretty good way to go about it.

All in all, there are many advantages to the audiophile lifestyle. I don't know what they are, but I'm sure there are many of them.

All snark aside, you do get better resolution and imaging - things sound more 3d and holographic and you hear more information in your music - but you don't necessarily get better tuning, and if you're after realism, just get an HD600/650, a nice tube amp, and call it a day. Also, real lifehack: learn to EQ.
 
May 13, 2023 at 10:00 PM Post #7 of 19
Some of the ones id recommend that are a great value for what you can get them for on eBay:
Truthear crinnacle zero (add a $9 Apple USB/3.5mm adapter and great fun for the cost)
Hifiman he5xx, he400se, he400i
Beyerdynamic dt880 250 ohm

Those are safe bets at the right price, either on sale or the used market.
 
May 13, 2023 at 10:49 PM Post #8 of 19
Wait, we have Blue Hawaii and Stax cans mentioned, and lower end HFM/Beyer.

The OG has to specify more detail, because surely one of those, if not both, might not be near the mark. He's mentioned stuff in the $300-1000 bracket.
 
May 17, 2023 at 4:12 PM Post #9 of 19
Sorry, let me try to distill my thoughts and feelings into some tangible questions -
How strong does that notion of "house" sound/signature tend to be? I hear "beyer treble", but do most people pick that up? What is the typical way of describing house sound for focal/audeze/hifiman?
How much better do $1000 headphones tend to sound over $300 ones, now that I have a feel for $50 to $300? I have to imagine a point of diminishing return. Like they say in the food/restaurant world, at a relatively "low" price point the food is mostly maxed out and the places differentiate with service and unique experience.
Having listened to open-back forever now, what should I expect when I try closed? Specifically should Elegia be a good representative of Focal open-back or is the "house" going to make less difference than the "-back" style?
How much does music impact fav headphones for most people? I have a friend who uses one set for production and another for listening, but I can certainly see preferring one set for vocals and one set for jazz or another for bass. You folks that have 3+ sets, what do you tend to rotate on?
You can skip electrostatic for me! I am interested in descriptions and comparison but will not be making a purchase in that direction. Too much hassle, and too much good stuff available without going that route.
 
May 17, 2023 at 5:53 PM Post #10 of 19
If you know your preferred tuning, you're one step ahead of many. Most of us just listen to different headphones until we find what we like... it gets expensive really fast.
This might be the biggest trick of all! I "think" I do but then the writeups, reviews, and my own EQ (i have a loki mini for s&g) tell me otherwise.

It can all be chalked up to inexperience, I suppose. But it is interesting to compare what I think I know, with what others say. Maybe our ears are simply that different from one another.
 
May 17, 2023 at 5:58 PM Post #11 of 19
You get worse ergonomics and a depleted bank account. Sounds good, right? Sign me up.

Also, friends will look at you weird and the more you talk about audio stuff the less friends you'll have.

And if you ever thought "life is great, but what I could really use is permanent ringing in my ears" this is a pretty good way to go about it.

All in all, there are many advantages to the audiophile lifestyle. I don't know what they are, but I'm sure there are many of them.

All snark aside, you do get better resolution and imaging - things sound more 3d and holographic and you hear more information in your music - but you don't necessarily get better tuning, and if you're after realism, just get an HD600/650, a nice tube amp, and call it a day. Also, real lifehack: learn to EQ.
tell me, tell me :frowning2: :frowning2:
 
May 17, 2023 at 6:01 PM Post #12 of 19
Can you listen first? I wasn't able too in 2016-2020 when I bought 14 cans. I have 5 left , (3 I use a lot, 2 are used seldom) rest are gone. I hesitate to name them, because its my taste and don't want to bias you.

If you can't preview. What's your taste in music? budget? What do you listen for, what annoys you?
Definitely can! I have no schedule for my next big purchase. Well I bought a DT 880 (600ohm) after posting this but those were fairly cheap. Also I wanted to see what 600ohm did to my dac/amp stack. Turns out, not much! Obviously they take more volume knob than my DT 900 prox but it is not a wholly pronounced difference. I guess planar type and other architectural differences matter more than a few (hundred) ohms?

My listening targets are all over the map. I have been huge on distortion rock (black keys and white stripes) in the last week, but probably about to get back into metal and electronic.
 
May 17, 2023 at 6:02 PM Post #13 of 19
This might be the biggest trick of all! I "think" I do but then the writeups, reviews, and my own EQ (i have a loki mini for s&g) tell me otherwise.

It can all be chalked up to inexperience, I suppose. But it is interesting to compare what I think I know, with what others say. Maybe our ears are simply that different from one another.

Totally different, but just trust yourself and what you like. If you have a chance, get to a CanJam and demo as much stuff as possible... there are so many headphones I would have bought blindly based on other's reviews had I not heard them in person.
 
May 17, 2023 at 6:39 PM Post #14 of 19
The idea of "house signature" really varies from maker to maker. Some makers are quite good at hitting a house target - Hifiman for instance has consistent frequency response in a lot of their headphones - but some manufacturers are all over the place, i.e. Stax. So really it's a case by case basis.

There is some correlation between price and performance, but not that much. Realistically, you can get good sound at (nearly) every pricepoint, depending on what you define as good of course. Diminishing returns hit hard however, and above $300 or so you really see much less linear gain even if you were to only look at standout products.

There are some exceptions - some electrostatics for instance essentially break diminishing returns giving you vastly better performance compared to cheaper models - but overall diminishing returns hit hard, and honestly the answer to what you get when you go to $1000... not nearly as much as you get going from $50 to $300. Mostly, headphones get more resolving, maybe a bit wider staging, a bit better dynamics and separation, but critically the tuning doesn't really get any better. This is why learning to EQ properly can get you better results than simply spending more.

The very best systems can be pretty special though. Good headphones can trick you into thinking that there are instruments spontaneously appearing out of the air all around you rather than a pair of drivers on the sides of your head. But I've only gotten that effect a handful of times - the HE90/HEV90 combo did that as did my old SR-007/Blue Hawaii rig, and a few others got close (L700 does it but not as well, HD650 sometimes off a good tube amp, Utopia or Clear with DSHA-3F kinda sorta, etc). These systems can sound special but building one takes effort and time, and you cannot force it by simply throwing money at the problem. Not everything expensive is good, or wants to work together well.

Lastly, when you're spending that much you always have to look at what else you can get at that money. There are some amazing nearfield monitors you can get or even bookshelf and floorstanding speakers at the higher pricepoints, and they will do things that no headphone system ever can, so you always have to pause and ask yourself if it's worth it.

Open back vs. closed, well I don't listen to much closed so can't tell you there.

Music has an enormous impact. The things that you index for in your preferences depend greatly on what you listen to. If you listen to a lot of vocals, acoustic, jazz, etc then tonality and tembre are very important, as well as midrange quality and performance. If it's a lot of electronic and more dance oriented stuff and you're used to listening to it on club systems, you're more likely to index for strong bass. I'm not gonna go through the list but it matters a lot.

TL;DR try to listen to this stuff yourself, maybe find a brick and mortar store or go to a meet, that'll answer some questions. Ultimately in anything that depends on perception, there will be a great deal of different takes and disagreement, and there really is no substitute for your own experience. And of course your own preferences will evolve over time. You might find something that shocks you or sounds really unique and start wanting that, only to get tired of it and start indexing for something else years later. So there's really no amount of posts you can read that will tell you all this stuff, you just have to take the plunge and do it yourself.

Taking the time to understand the nitty gritty, learning to read graphs, learning some actual sound science (there's a lot of bs masquerading as science in audio) will speed up the process and will help steer you better towards the stuff that's legit, but of course learning this takes effort and time too.

Personally, I index for effortless resolution and accurate tonality above all else, and I also EQ. For critical listening I've been using electrostatics for decades since there is nothing else that resolves like them while at the same time sounding smooth and natural. However there are lots of fairly crap sounding electrostatics out there today and my favorite systems are mostly the standout older ones. Generally when people talk about electrostatics sounding ethereal, diffuse, too dry, having no bass, etc - the bad ones sound like that, the good ones sound natural, very liquid and smooth, are pretty well tuned, and where they're lacking EQ works wonders.

On the flip side, for casual and all-around listening, I have yet to find something that works better than the HD650 off a good tube or hybrid amp, it's very light, comfortable, nearly perfectly tuned, not particularly picky about source material while at the same time being resolving enough to hear just about everything, and I can listen to it 8 hours a day and not notice. As you get older, stuff like that matters more, so I end up using the HD650 95% of the time even when I have some much higher-end headphones lying around. But it has to be in the right rig, with your average solid state amp it can sound woolly or dull and not have any of the magic it can have in the right system.

All this stuff I found mainly through trial and error, trying and rejecting things I didn't like to eventually find the stuff I did.

This leads me to the last, and most important point:

Trying and rejecting things you don't like takes up most of your time, and seems like a waste of time, but it isn't. 95% of the stuff out there won't work for you, but you need to go through it to find the 5% that does. This is true for any hobby, any skill, anything you learn: most of what you learn will be useless, but you have to go through it all to find what's useful. And there is no silver bullet to skip this process, you just have to do it. It's just a matter of how efficiently (and cheaply) you can do it here, and going to meets, trying stuff in stores, buying used and selling to recoup costs are all valid ways to do that.

Then again to people not in the hobby, you seem like an obsessed maniac throwing money at frivolous things you don't need. And of course, they're right.

But time you enjoyed wasting is not wasted time.
 
May 18, 2023 at 2:00 PM Post #15 of 19
The idea of "house signature" really varies from maker to maker. Some makers are quite good at hitting a house target - Hifiman for instance has consistent frequency response in a lot of their headphones - but some manufacturers are all over the place, i.e. Stax. So really it's a case by case basis.

There is some correlation between price and performance, but not that much. Realistically, you can get good sound at (nearly) every pricepoint, depending on what you define as good of course. Diminishing returns hit hard however, and above $300 or so you really see much less linear gain even if you were to only look at standout products.

There are some exceptions - some electrostatics for instance essentially break diminishing returns giving you vastly better performance compared to cheaper models - but overall diminishing returns hit hard, and honestly the answer to what you get when you go to $1000... not nearly as much as you get going from $50 to $300. Mostly, headphones get more resolving, maybe a bit wider staging, a bit better dynamics and separation, but critically the tuning doesn't really get any better. This is why learning to EQ properly can get you better results than simply spending more.

The very best systems can be pretty special though. Good headphones can trick you into thinking that there are instruments spontaneously appearing out of the air all around you rather than a pair of drivers on the sides of your head. But I've only gotten that effect a handful of times - the HE90/HEV90 combo did that as did my old SR-007/Blue Hawaii rig, and a few others got close (L700 does it but not as well, HD650 sometimes off a good tube amp, Utopia or Clear with DSHA-3F kinda sorta, etc). These systems can sound special but building one takes effort and time, and you cannot force it by simply throwing money at the problem. Not everything expensive is good, or wants to work together well.

Lastly, when you're spending that much you always have to look at what else you can get at that money. There are some amazing nearfield monitors you can get or even bookshelf and floorstanding speakers at the higher pricepoints, and they will do things that no headphone system ever can, so you always have to pause and ask yourself if it's worth it.

Open back vs. closed, well I don't listen to much closed so can't tell you there.

Music has an enormous impact. The things that you index for in your preferences depend greatly on what you listen to. If you listen to a lot of vocals, acoustic, jazz, etc then tonality and tembre are very important, as well as midrange quality and performance. If it's a lot of electronic and more dance oriented stuff and you're used to listening to it on club systems, you're more likely to index for strong bass. I'm not gonna go through the list but it matters a lot.

TL;DR try to listen to this stuff yourself, maybe find a brick and mortar store or go to a meet, that'll answer some questions. Ultimately in anything that depends on perception, there will be a great deal of different takes and disagreement, and there really is no substitute for your own experience. And of course your own preferences will evolve over time. You might find something that shocks you or sounds really unique and start wanting that, only to get tired of it and start indexing for something else years later. So there's really no amount of posts you can read that will tell you all this stuff, you just have to take the plunge and do it yourself.

Taking the time to understand the nitty gritty, learning to read graphs, learning some actual sound science (there's a lot of bs masquerading as science in audio) will speed up the process and will help steer you better towards the stuff that's legit, but of course learning this takes effort and time too.

Personally, I index for effortless resolution and accurate tonality above all else, and I also EQ. For critical listening I've been using electrostatics for decades since there is nothing else that resolves like them while at the same time sounding smooth and natural. However there are lots of fairly crap sounding electrostatics out there today and my favorite systems are mostly the standout older ones. Generally when people talk about electrostatics sounding ethereal, diffuse, too dry, having no bass, etc - the bad ones sound like that, the good ones sound natural, very liquid and smooth, are pretty well tuned, and where they're lacking EQ works wonders.

On the flip side, for casual and all-around listening, I have yet to find something that works better than the HD650 off a good tube or hybrid amp, it's very light, comfortable, nearly perfectly tuned, not particularly picky about source material while at the same time being resolving enough to hear just about everything, and I can listen to it 8 hours a day and not notice. As you get older, stuff like that matters more, so I end up using the HD650 95% of the time even when I have some much higher-end headphones lying around. But it has to be in the right rig, with your average solid state amp it can sound woolly or dull and not have any of the magic it can have in the right system.

All this stuff I found mainly through trial and error, trying and rejecting things I didn't like to eventually find the stuff I did.

This leads me to the last, and most important point:

Trying and rejecting things you don't like takes up most of your time, and seems like a waste of time, but it isn't. 95% of the stuff out there won't work for you, but you need to go through it to find the 5% that does. This is true for any hobby, any skill, anything you learn: most of what you learn will be useless, but you have to go through it all to find what's useful. And there is no silver bullet to skip this process, you just have to do it. It's just a matter of how efficiently (and cheaply) you can do it here, and going to meets, trying stuff in stores, buying used and selling to recoup costs are all valid ways to do that.

Then again to people not in the hobby, you seem like an obsessed maniac throwing money at frivolous things you don't need. And of course, they're right.

But time you enjoyed wasting is not wasted time.
Post of the month? Seriously, thanks for spending your time on this. It sounds like sage advice and resonates clearly with me, will be keeping it in mind best I can.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top