Downsampling of DVD-Audio?

[Beauregard]

I've hooked up my Toshiba SD-4900 to the DAC1 and have ordered some Classic Records HDAD (dual sided - DVD and DVD-A) discs to play with.

I understand that the DVD-A licensing setup means that I can't get the 192 kHz PCM stream from the digital output of the player. What I don't understand is what sampling frequency it will provide.

From the Toshiba user's manual: "If you use the Digital Output (Optical or Coaxial) for your audio connection, the sound will only be similar to CD-quality sound even though you're playing a DVD Audio disc..."

Does this mean that the digital stream will be downsampled to 44.1 kHz? Or will I get the 96 kHz that the player is able to deliver from DVD? Is there an industry standard/licensing agreement stipulation that determines this or is it up to individual manufacturers?

Hope someone can shed some light on this...

Thanks much,
Beau

 

[jefemeister]

It varies, but I imagine it will output 48kHz, possibly 96kHz. This way it just has to throw away samples (after it runs through an anti-alias filter.) To go from 192->44.1 is quite a bit more complicated.

 

[NeilPeart]

Both the player itself and the media one plays have an impact. First, most players force digital output of all DVD-A media to 48kHz. However, some players (like my Panasonic DVD-S47) can output DVD-A digitally up to 192kHz (which is why I bought it). However, even if one does own a player that can output un-molested digital data, most DVD-A media is locked digitally on this disc itself, and will resample to 48kHz regardless of the hardware. Even smaller classical/jazz labels like Teldec, Deutsche Gramophone and Verve enable this evil limitation (and all pop/rock labels do as well). Silverline Records is 75% limitation free (which means it will output un-molested data on most of its discs); Chesky, Telarc (which unfortunately only released 2 DVD-A discs and will probably release no more), Denon and AIX (my favorite DVD-A label) all support full-bandwidth, un-molested DVD-A output. If you are unsure if your DVD-A disc is limited, use PowerDVD 6 and tell it to output via SPDIF to your DAC1; if no sound is heard switch to regular 2-channel output. If music is output in analog mode (2-channel, headphone, etc.) but not in SPDIF mode (digital), then your media is restricted and downsamples to 48kHz. Unfortunately most media these days (especially popular rock, pop, jazz and even most classical) is limited, but the labels that value their customers don't believe that limiting their discs utility is a smart business decision. Listening to full-bandwidth DVD-A through the DAC1 is something truly special – one can truly realize how the limited Redbook format has strangled music’s capabilities (regardless of the loudness race and poor mastering). Well-recorded DVD-A is the closest thing I’ve heard to quality analog (vinyl) reproduction, and there’s nary a surface noise to obscure the purity of the sound.

 

[Welly Wu]

NeilPert:

I agree with you and you ought to try out labels such as AIX Records and NAXOS if you are addicted to classical music like me.

BeauRegard:

I considered the setup you have right now awhile ago and I decided against it for the same technical limitations that you are experiencing right now. To the best of my knowledge, the only way you can get full bandwidth 192kHz/24bit resolution from your universal DVD player through to your headphone amplifier (not meaning your current Benchmark DAC-1) is if it uses traditional unbalanced RCA or balanced XLR connections and your cables are of sufficient build quality (reject EMI/RF contamination through good shielding and quality cable such as Belden up to 6MHz). You can not really get 192kHz/24bit full bandwidth output from your source component through your headphone amplifier digitally because you will absolutely need a IEEE1394 (FireWire) interface and the headphone amplifier needs to have the proper DVD-Audio decoder (which means that the company has to purchase a license to utilize DVD-Audio per their very rigid contract stipulations set by the DVD Forum).

Sorry. I think your best bet is to just output through the analoge two channel output with quality cabling such as BlueJeans Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com) and have the Bencmark DAC-1 connected either through unbalanced RCA or balanced XLR (which may not be an option in your particular setup).

 

[Giteet]

NeilPeart just explained how full-bandwidth, un-molested digital output to the DAC1 is possible with DVD-A players like the Panasonic DVD-S47, Welly!

 

[Beauregard]

Thanks for the replies guys!

Welly Wu: Er... I appreciate your trouble but I was just looking for info about DVD-A. I'm using the DAC1 with a HeadRoom MOH and a CDP feeding the coax input. Yesterday I got an optical cable long enough to reach the DVD player.

NeilPeart: Thanks so much for taking the time to share your knowledge! A truly comprehensive piece... it should be part of a FAQ somewhere.

I really haven't paid attention to the hires formats. When I bought the DVD player I figured I'd spend an extra $20 for the DVD-A feature for no particular reason. My entire collection to this point is all of one DVD-A. I haven't read a lot about the new formats, but I am confused about why they would make it so difficult to feed the digital stream to a DAC. I understand the copy concern but seems like that would be balanced by greater sales to DAC owners...

Quote:

...AIX (my favorite DVD-A label)...

I listened last night to the 96 kHZ stereo samples on the AIX disc that came with the DAC1. I thought the jazz tracks were marvelous but didn't care much for the small ensemble chamber music/folk recordings. Individual instruments and voices were superb but each having its own mike placed, IMO, way too close left me cold. Sounded more like a studio recording than the shared-space natural ambience of the Dorian (aaargghh... bankrupt!) recordings that I hold dear.

Quote:

Listening to full-bandwidth DVD-A through the DAC1 is something truly special – one can truly realize how the limited Redbook format has strangled music’s capabilities...

I don't know if my middle aged, less-than-audiophile ears would be able to appreciate such. I've arranged a preliminary test though - among the discs on its way is the DVD version of Muddy Waters: Folk Singer. I'll be able to play the 96 kHz track simultaneously with my CD and flick the switch on the DAC1 to see if the ol' ears can detect a difference due to sampling rate.

I think my only follow-up question is which players in addition to the Panasonic you mentioned provide a 192 kHz stream? My understanding (obviously mistaken) was that no manufacturers were allowed to do this. I don't know how interested I am in actually buying such a thing but depending on how my ears deal with the Muddy test, I might want to try full blown DVD-A with the DAC1. And it would be kinda neat to feed the DAC1 at its highest rate even if I can't hear the diff, especially if it can be done for less than $100.

Thanks again for such a comprehensive response!

Best,
Beau

 

[NeilPeart]

With most DVD-A players it's usually better to use coaxial digital rather than optical because many of these players instituted a 96 kHz limitation for the optical output. For your DAC1 I recommend a Belden 1694A 75ohm, RG-6 coaxial cable, with one end an RCA and the other a BNC (which the DAC1 accepts). I use a 2m cable of this very spec, and it allows output up to 192 kHz without any difficulty.