[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, when are you selling out all your tube amps in favor of the Corda Opera? And same for you sacd lover - when are you selling your tube amps for the Audio Alchemy? I think anyone who prefers solid state over a good tube amp is using the wrong tubes. And Davesrose, sacd lover, and Skylab, do any of you hear any characteristic difference bewtween solid state and tube amplification - are they both the same?

For the what seems like the millionth time, you said, All solid state amps have a lean tone body.

We have countered that is not true with tangible examples. No one has said we prefer solid state. As usual you try to twist the premise and change the issue. You just dont want to accept you are wrong.

Once again, you ask questions but never have the courtesy to answer ours. So how about it .... what is that SS amp with feedback I supposedly like? What SS headamps besides the Lehmann have YOU heard? Do YOU play any instruments? These are very simple questions that a third grader could answer. If you cant answer them I am sure I can conclude the answer is .... no clue, none and no.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells /img/forum/go_quote.gif And Davesrose, sacd lover, and Skylab, do any of you hear any characteristic difference bewtween solid state and tube amplification - are they both the same?

Art, how many pages has everyone been saying that every amp sounds different? Even back in that other thread, most people were telling you that while the stereotype is that tubes are warm and fuzzy and that SS is cold and analytical, there are exceptions to this blanket stereotype. You yourself have admitted that there are SS amps that are not "lean" sounding. Yes, you say that they're not as good sounding as a good tube amp, but that was not the initial premise. The initial primise was that all SS amps are lean sounding. I think what's complicating your logic is that you think there's some golden standard of what a neutral amp is. Neutral and natural are not the same thing. You have said that you believe tubes give a "naturally rich tone". That in itself means that there's coloration (you're using the adjective "rich"). It might be natural to your ears....but it's still not neutral by analytical measurements.

Especially since other headphones besides your prized k701s sound different, wouldn't it stand to reason that a colder amp might synergize well with a headphone that you've deemed muddy? Could it also be that one of the reasons the other headphone is muddy to you is that you're used to the brightness of your particular headphone? What you deem as natural is not what everyone else deems as natural, so don't assume your tastes are are a universal mean.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooperpwc /img/forum/go_quote.gif I want to say that this sounds like a very interesting amp - and worthy of discussion given its apparent versatility. Too bad the thread stopped discussing it a couple of pages ago. I assure all that my comment is directed at no one in particular. I would love to own just one expensive quality amp - tube or SS.

It looks like it started when questions about Art's association with Cattylink was raised. Can't say anything about this amp or the others that Cattylink sells since I haven't heard them. But Art can't make blanket statements about expensive tube amps he hasn't heard either (ie that OTL based amps lack dynamics).

One cheaper tube amp that gets a lot of praises that I've heard is the Darkvoice series. It's not as impactful sounding as more expensive tube amps, but it offers the ease of tube rolling, and is pretty reliable and not overly "tubey" sounding. SS amps have their place too

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, when are you selling out all your tube amps in favor of the Corda Opera? And same for you sacd lover - when are you selling your tube amps for the Audio Alchemy? I think anyone who prefers solid state over a good tube amp is using the wrong tubes. And Davesrose, sacd lover, and Skylab, do any of you hear any characteristic difference bewtween solid state and tube amplification - are they both the same?

I have lots of amps. I find them all different, and that's why I like having lots of them. Some SS amps are lean sounding, to be sure. Some tube amps are over-syrupy. There is a happy medium in both camps, where they are still different, but closer together. The Meier Opera has much of the warmth of a good tube amp, with some of the frequency-extreme performance that solid-state is great for.

 

[greggf]

Guys,

Google for an article by Steven Phillipson called "The Right Stuff - Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder."

It should explain a lot of what we've all been going through recently re: solid state vs. tubes.

On other forums, there are the same kind of insane debates about fuel mileage, whether to use premium fuel or regular grade in your car, whether to grow all heirloom tomatoes or whether to grow hybrids, etc.

All of these debates have no answer. But internet forums aren't face to face, so those who couldn't be as odd and obstructionist in "real life" can run amuck with their problems online.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif All of these debates have no answer. But internet forums aren't face to face, so those who couldn't be as odd and obstructionist in "real life" can run amuck with their problems online.

Where a select few turn into internet bots

 

[greggf]

Oh, geez, I forgot the infernal eternal debate over cables.

I think it's Tyll over at Headroom who mentioned somewhere that if you want to start a debate to end all debates, post on an audio forum either, "Cables are the most important part of a system," or else, "Cables are of no importance whatsoever."

Another great debate is over whether to use synthetic oil or normal oil in your crankcase. That gets people going, too.

 

[drarthurwells]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooperpwc /img/forum/go_quote.gif I want to say that this sounds like a very interesting amp - and worthy of discussion given its apparent versatility. Too bad the thread stopped discussing it a couple of pages ago. I assure all that my comment is directed at no one in particular. I would love to own just one expensive quality amp - tube or SS.

I think those with extensive experience with both tube and solid state headphone amps tend to gravitate toward tube and way from solid state headphone amps.

When a discussion arises, of what is the best headphone amp, these are generally ranked by highest price, and are nearly all tube amps rather than solid state. Obviously tube sound is more highly prized.

Only the tin ears say solid state and tube sound is the same - the golden ears say they have differences in their sound. You can identify the two groups by their posts on this thread.

One may ask what is this difference?

I say both share many sonic attributes but the tone body of tubes is subtly better than solid state, in ways that can't be measured.

Now you can spend thousands of dollars on headphone amp but to me this is wasted money.

Chinese amps offer great quality for the money because of extrmely low labor costs. One award winning Chinese made speaker amp has a Western brand name and sells for close to $3000 under the Western brand name. The exact same amp in China is $600. Do the math.

I have been getting PMs from those who bought the Doge, such as this recent one:

"I just had to let you know that I bought the Doge 6210 based on your posts. I am just floored by the improvement it provides. Anybody that says HD595's won't benefit from an amp must be hard of hearing."

For some reason people who buy and love the amps I recommend are reluctant to publicly post this but PM me all of the time.

I say the Doge will beat or match much more expensive headphone amps and is the most cost-effective headphone amp I know of - based not only on my own experince, but on reports from others who have own the Doge and own (or have owned) more expensive amps.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells /img/forum/go_quote.gif Only the tin ears say solid state and tube sound is the same - the golden ears say they have differences in their sound. You can identify the two groups by their posts on this thread. .

OK INTERNET BOT!!!! FOR THE GAZILLIONTH TIME: WHAT PEOPLE SAY THAT ALL AMPS SOUND THE SAME?????? I have not seen one on this thread!

How can you have "golden ears" if you've repeatedly glossed over the fact that you haven't heard very many amps?? If you had any sense of music, your golden ears would know what treble notes are, as well as what decay is.....instead, your basis of music analysis is rather out there:

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells /img/forum/go_quote.gif You should listen in a quiet environment, using a good HP system, to music recorded so that the mikes pick up direct sounds, rather than sound reflected less than 10 milliseconds relative to the direct sounds, if you want to reduce phase distotion and interaural distorion. This will maximize sharp imaging with reduced muddy or blurred tones to provide maximum clarity - superior to the imaging and clarity of live music in a seat some distance from the instruments. If I really want to hear all the inner detail of an orchestra, with the greatest clarity, I prefer well-recorded to live music any day.

So you don't like the realities of real life music and like to think your own music system is the benchmark of all music

You also like to compare to amps you've never heard before:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meyvn /img/forum/go_quote.gif Which amp that currently costs $1200 have you purchased that you found to be worse, if I may ask?

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells /img/forum/go_quote.gif Based on my experience and reports from Bada PH12 owners I find that at least some people prefer the Bada to other more expensive amps they now own or have owned. I rate the Jolida as very, very close to the Bada PH12. I definitely plan on keeping the Jolida along with my Badas (I have extras as back-ups just in case) and will listen to both. I believe that at least some people would find the Jolida to be better than at least some more expensive amps. However, some may prefer other amps to either the Bada or the Jolida. Evaluating sound can be very tricky as human perception is fraught with error. Eye witness identification in criminal cases is notoriously unreliable, for instance, even though the witnesses are certain of their identicfications. Be careful of impressions at meets - only gross differences will be detected in such conditions. Top components differ in very subtle ways and these differences may take extensive listening to discern. Once you do this, and spot a problem in a component, you sensitize yourself to this problem and reject the component, no matter how much you previously loved it. Such extensive evaluation over a long period can reverse your intitial impresssion as to which of two components is best.

So you like to train your ears to see your current setup as being a benchmark for sound reproduction, and you have very limited experience with amps yet try to aspouse views on amps you've never heard

:

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells /img/forum/go_quote.gif Art: The amps for phones I have owned (and not just heard on a temporary basis), and which I well know their sound, are the David Hafler 110 pre-amp and headphone amp combo, the Headroom Micro with desktop module, the Headroom Cosmic, the Stax (cost thousands but can't remember the model) with its own dedicated amp, the Lehmann Black Cube linear) the Ming Da (Meixing) MC66AE, and now the Bada PH12.

So what expensive headphone amps have you heard that the Doge beats Art? I'm not knocking the Doge itself since I haven't heard it.....but I'm rather sick of seeing you presume to know what other amps sound like, when you have not heard them.

 

[J-Pak]

I am sorry drarthurwells please clarify this if I am wrong but are you getting paid by Cattylink for such advertisements? I mean no offense, but it seems you are always advertising Chinese products that are distributed through them. And someone has also told me that Cattylink pays you to do Eastsound CD player repairs.

If this is true, then it is unfair to market such items.

If I am mistaken my sincerest apologies.

 

[cotdt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Pak /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am sorry drarthurwells please clarify this if I am wrong but are you getting paid by Cattylink for such advertisements? I mean no offense, but it seems you are always advertising Chinese products that are distributed through them. And someone has also told me that Cattylink pays you to do Eastsound CD player repairs. If this is true, then it is unfair to market such items. If I am mistaken my sincerest apologies.

This has already been clarified on Page 2 and the answer is no he doesn't work for Cattylink. He's not the only supporter of this amp. I like this amp very much, too.

 

[Spiderick]

I bought this amp based on drarthurwells' posts, and I can honestly say his observations were spot on. Also, I did not get it through Cattylink, but from a different supplier. (cost a little more, but had a better warranty)

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif This has already been clarified on Page 2 and the answer is no he doesn't work for Cattylink. He's not the only supporter of this amp. I like this amp very much, too.

A supporter of an amp he continuously touts to n00bs as being better then anything costing up to $1200: even though he has never heard amps he rails against. He has yet to say what expensive amps it actually beats:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=202028


Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells /img/forum/go_quote.gif I say my headphone amps, power conditioner, power cables, and IC match or beat any at any price. I buy most of my amp stuff from Cattylink because they offer great prices and service and are totally reliable. You pay $2800 for an award winning KT88 amp under a famous brand, made in China, and the exact same amp can be bought at Cattylink for $600. My three headphone amps would sell for three or four times the price if made in the USA, and many here would consider them as good as any at any price in that case. There are - at around $375 to $525 from Cattylink. Again, I recommend my amps not because you can get them from Catylink, but because they offer the best sound, and are low cost, to enable others to save money while having the best sound. I do free repair work on E5 CDPs and did one free Bada 12 mosfet repair, where Cattylink supplies me parts on an exchange basis. I do this because it is fun, quick and easy, and very infrequent, out of my deep appreciation for the great products I have bought from Cattylink. I usually buy in large quantity from Cattylink to save shipping, and share with my sons or sell at times (not for profit). I just sold two Doge amps on a trial basis after ordering a few before prices might rise. I actually sold them for slightly less than my cost, which was slightly below $375, but they both may come back (and go to my sons who have Bada 12s). I will send you, via Fed Ex, a new Doge, with tubes, and you keep it for two weeks. You then return it via Fed Ex, in the same condition as received, and include $14 cash for my original shipping costs. Hear for yourself - even with your sources that you own you might be able to hear how good it is. The K701 will help here.

No, I see no vested interest in the Doge that Art "occasionally" sells or the tubes that Art sells on internet sites. His responses never have the usual salesman responses: "I say my headphone amps, power conditioner, power cables, and IC match or beat any at any price" "I think my amps are as good if not better than other amps for under $1200. I get reports from Bada 12, Doge 6210, and Jolida JD2A owners, who tell me their experience with amps costing up to $1200 and their preference for the amps I own."

 

[dwchin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif This has already been clarified on Page 2 and the answer is no he doesn't work for Cattylink. He's not the only supporter of this amp. I like this amp very much, too.

I purchased this amp as well, and I agree it's very enjoyable and a good value. drarthurwells has already stated he doesn't work for Cattylink, and I'm inclined to believe him because he also says to purchase from Pacific Valve in the US as another option. It's not like Cattylink makes these amps. And I take all statements that claim some amps are better than others with a grain (or bucket) or salt anyway, and I believe all people should do the same. Things aren't true until you yourself can validate those opinions with your own ear. But just because he likes these amps and recommends them over others doesn't mean he's working for Cattylink. At least, it doesn't appear that way to me.

I would have commented on this amp earlier, but (1) I haven't owned it for that long and am still going through initial impressions and (2) this thread has long ago stopped being about the Doge and is now a discussion of tube amps in general vs solid state and, more unfortunately, an argument between posters over the validity of drarthurwells' opinions. Blanket statements aside, his impressions of the amp alone (without comparisons to other amps, but more specifically his descriptions of overall sound and tube combinations) have been accurate to the best of my ability to hear. But I do not pretend to be an expert in tube amps or even solid state, so I prefer to let the expert ears duke this one out.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwchin /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would have commented on this amp earlier, but (1) I haven't owned it for that long and am still going through initial impressions and (2) this thread has long ago stopped being about the Doge and is now a discussion of tube amps in general vs solid state and, more unfortunately, an argument between posters over the validity of drarthurwells' opinions. Blanket statements aside, his impressions of the amp alone (without comparisons to other amps, but more specifically his descriptions of overall sound and tube combinations) have been accurate to the best of my ability to hear. But I do not pretend to be an expert in tube amps or even solid state, so I prefer to let the expert ears duke this one out.

And this is why I'm going to continue to question Art: it seems that those who follow his blanket statements are n00bs, who should have better guidance. This should be a place where new members get suggestions on products that other members have experience with. Art is very single minded in his estimation of tubes, and other amps he hasn't heard. Meanwhile, he says that the tube is the most important thing in an amp, and that you only know a bad amp if you've listened to a good amp. Even though Art's "good" amp uses tubes that are known to be stinkers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacd lover /img/forum/go_quote.gif One of the most noteworthy and widely respected guides for the 12ax7/12at7/12au7/ 6dj8/6922 series of tubes is posted @ audio Asylum and called Joe's Tube Lore. http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/faq...bes.html#12AX7 Here is a short cut to Joe's opinion of the 12ax7 tubes ..... Joe: Now when it comes to sound quality where do I begin? Well, to my ears - they ALL suck. There, I said it. Even (particularly?) the legendary Telefunkens. How can this be? Well, every 12AX7 I've ever heard has a common sonic character that's drives me to distraction. Specifically, they all sound a bit fuzzy, unfocused and hazy with a subtle sense of a soft sonic haze permeating a soundstage populated with large unfocused images.

 

[dwchin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif And this is why I'm going to continue to question Art: it seems that those who follow his blanket statements are n00bs, who should have better guidance. This should be a place where new members get suggestions on products that other members have experience with. Art is very single minded in his estimation of tubes, and other amps he hasn't heard. Meanwhile, he says that the tube is the most important thing in an amp, and that you only know a bad amp if you've listened to a good amp. Even though Art's "good" amp uses tubes that are known to be stinkers:

Those are all excellent points. I do fully agree with you about his blanket statements. I wasn't saying that there should be no discussion of whether or not Art is misleading people with his opinions. I'm just saying that just because he generalizes like that, doesn't mean he works for Cattylink. Those are two really different offenses. The first one is deeply misguided on his part, the second one is toeing the unethical line, if not blatantly crossing it. It just looks to me like he has a favorite distributor.

And as I said, I don't profess to be an expert in tubes or tube amps. I have no qualms about labeling myself a tube "noob," as we say. It looks like the other amps he owns have been generally supported as being good value amps. I wish someone here with so-called golden ears could provide other opinions on how the Doge stacks up, but it looks like it's too early in the game for that. I bought it because I was looking for something new to try. Just based on my experience, I wouldn't call this amp worthless, even if it does use 12AX7 tubes, but then, what do I know? I'm a self-professed "tube noob"

Also, just wanted to add that my original post was really just expressing that it's a shame this thread isn't more about the actual Doge anymore. I'm most interested in seeing what other people think about the amp, to see if my own ears agree with others' listening experiences. Really, that's the best way for someone like myself to get more knowledge of that tube sound.