does wire acctually make a difference?

[GirgleMirt]

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Well, the only thing you can credibly report is that they sound the same to you

or that they measure the same...

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whereas to me they might make a difference

Yes, I've never said the placebo effect doesn't exist... They might sound different to me also, no one is exempted from placebo effect..


The important thing to get thru, is that cables either work, or don't. You can't tweak a system with cables. There are cables which modify the signal they're fed, but that is not the role of cables. If you have a cable with adequate size, there's no point in upgrading the cable as it is already fulfulling its function..

 

[dk123]

Seeing an optical illusion a not the same as the placebo effect at all. You're not seeing something because you think you're going to see something or have some expectation of a result, you're seeing something because a certain visual pattern is being perceived a certain way by your brain. It's just a completely different phenomenon.

Besides, given that the placebo effect is real, medically speaking, why should it be any less valid in terms of audio equipment?

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Originally Posted by GirgleMirt So what would be the flaw? You've just described the placebo effect, and its exactly what affects people judgements while thinking they are hearing differences... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect for example. In that same sens, people really think that changing the cables made a clear difference, when in fact there was no difference... They'll probably perceive new details, more air, more layers, etc.. Optical illusions aren't that far off IMHO. You think you see something moving, when its not, or see different colors when they're the same... Might the flaw be that no one is really benefiting from optical illusions?

 

[GirgleMirt]

I was referring to this statement: "Anyway, I think it's important to note that in those optical illusions, the viewer IS seeing the illusion--it is totaly real to them, as a result of various biological phenomena. While the viewer is seeing something that is not actually happening, it doesn't matter, because it is being perceived by the viewer as real."

That in cable placebo, people are hearing differences. They're totally real to them, and whether or not they're happening they're perceived as real, like illusions. But you're right, no placebo effect in illusions..

I've also bolded where you said that it doesn't matter.. I think it does matter... Reality always matters. In fact, I'd say that its the opposite. The illusion doesn't matter, and reality matters. If you see say a straight line as a curve, does it matter more that you see a curve, or does it matter more that the line is straight? I'd say reality matters more than than the illusion, since the illusion is just an illusion...

But again, looking at placebo, they can have a real effect.. If someone thinks he hears difference in cables and buying a new cable gives him real happiness because to him he just upgraded his system, I guess thats something. But me, I'd rather be told things as they are, and not coming back home with a 300$ piece of wire which does not affect the sound of a sound system in any way...

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Besides, given that the placebo effect is real, medically speaking, why should it be any less valid in terms of audio equipment?

Well imagine if you're having heart problems and you need heart surgery, you pay the doctor 30000$ to operate you, and he only cuts open your chest, then sews it back without doing anything else. Then he proceeds to tell you how amazing the operation was, and how you will feel better in a few days. Feel better do you?

If cable makers, salesman, etc made no claim about cables improving sound, there would be no issue. But people are benefiting from it, by using unethical methods..

 

[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by GirgleMirt or that they measure the same...

No, they wouldn't measure the same, and you couldn't prove neither one nor the other. Different cables measure differently. I'm not implying anything from that, because e.g. amps also measure differently, but the measuring results show little to no coincidence with the sonic results.


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Yes, I've never said the placebo effect doesn't exist... They might sound different to me also, no one is exempted from placebo effect.

Again, a categorical, ideological statement, although indirectly: If there's a difference, it's imagined.


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The important thing to get thru, is that cables either work, or don't. You can't tweak a system with cables. There are cables which modify the signal they're fed, but that is not the role of cables. If you have a cable with adequate size, there's no point in upgrading the cable as it is already fulfulling its function..

Again... Categorical statements seem to be your hobby.

BTW, cables serve me well for fine-tuning my setup. And every now and then I go back to some cheap interconnects or the stock Senn cable. You can imagine the result...

Of course I have to justify my expenses to myself...

 

[GirgleMirt]

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No, they wouldn't measure the same, and you couldn't prove neither one nor the other. Different cables measure differently. I'm not implying anything form that.

But thats the point. Take a 500$ interconnect with a lenght of 1 meter and a guage of X. Then take a 30$ interconnect with the same guage but only 1/2 meters. Guess which one will measure better and will give you the better results.

The other point, is that there are diminishing results. Buy the cheaper IC you can, and you'll probably have problems. Get a well built cable, for I dunno say 40$, and you have the best performance you can get. The cable will be able to perfectly handle the job of transmitting the signal from your cdp to your amp.. All the extra money is wasted as it will not improve the sound in any way...


But to be honest, I've wondered howcome say upgrading a HD600 cable would yield so many positive opinions. The best I can come up with is that the cable that comes with the headphones is defective and alters the sound in a negative way... I think the high frequencies are the ones which will be affected before/more by an incorrect cable.. If that would be the case, it would be measurable, I'd be curious to see if someone has ever bothered to measure the cable vs its competition..

Also you have to keep in mind that a bigger cable WILL offer less resistance, and depending on the length, can increase sound output, that can definitely be audible. So they CAN make a difference, but again, there's no need to go audiophile cable vs adequate cable.

 

[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by GirgleMirt Buy the cheaper IC you can, and you'll probably have problems. Get a well built cable, for I dunno say 40$, and you have the best performance you can get. The cable will be able to perfectly handle the job of transmitting the signal from your cdp to your amp.. All the extra money is wasted as it will not improve the sound in any way...

Funny. All of your statements have the same system: You know exactly how reality is, and you have to tell this to the world.


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But to be honest, I've wondered howcome say upgrading a HD600 cable would yield so many positive opinions. The best I can come up with is that the cable that comes with the headphones is defective and alters the sound in a negative way... I think the high frequencies are the ones which will be affected before/more by an incorrect cable.. If that would be the case, it would be measurable, I'd be curious to see if someone has ever bothered to measure the cable vs its competition.

Yes, I've measured the stock cable against the Zu Mobius and the Oehlbach (IIRC). There were differences with L, C and R, but none worth mentioning -- and certainly no defect in the stock cable. So is it that the high number of people who confirm that there are differences makes you cautious notwithstanding your conviction?


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Also you have to keep in mind that a bigger cable WILL offer less resistance, and depending on the length, can increase sound output, that can definitely be audible.

What's more decisive: length will increase capacitance and inductance. Resistance has no meaning with interconnects and headphone cables, just with speaker cables.


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So they CAN make a difference, but again, there's no need to go audiophile cable vs adequate cable.

We know, we know...

 

[PhilS]

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Originally Posted by GirgleMirt A Just in this thread, more than 4 instances have been stated where in DBT or BT fancy cables were compared to your avg cable, and the results were all the same. No difference. You can't find a blind test that indicates that there are perceptible differences between an adequately made cable and a fancy audiophile cable.

This is a DBT-free forum. Oh yeah, someone said that already.

 

[Trogdor]

I've watching this thread with interest because I thought I was the only one. Upfront, I want to say, bluntly, I don't believe cables make a real difference.

This belief stems from talking to numerous EE majors and a whole lot of listening (my sig has the cables but that is only to fit in!).

I've been told a couple of basic principles regarding cables:

- Quality construction is very important
- Proper shielding to reduce EMI and other noise factors
- Well fitted connectors to your components
- Length can be a factor depending on your setup

A lot of the high priced cables claim that their cable material (quality of cable and so forth) allows for a higher range of frequencies to pass through. As far as I can tell, there is truth in that statement, BUT unfortunately, the frequencies they are really talking about are WAY outside our biological capability to perceive (forget DBTs).

Also be aware of length, in a headphone setup, where the lengths are less than a couple of feet (max), I believe you hit a point of diminishing returns very quickly.

I think any quality cable will do you justice and IMO not take away from your source or amplication (where quality can be measured scientifically such as THD, SNR, frequency response, etc.).

With that said, if you you are a believer, and happy with your purchase, more power to ya!

Trogdor

PS Yes, I like Monster Cables, I think for the most part they make perfectly fine interconnects! !

 

[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by Trogdor ...if you you are a believer, and happy with your purchase, more power to ya!

I'm not happy with this term: reliably hearing reproduceable cable differences and trusting your own hearing doesn't make you a «believer», IMO. Many of the cable «believers» are aware of the problem of lacking physical justifications.

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I think any quality cable will do you justice and IMO not take away from your source or amplication (where quality can be measured scientifically such as THD, SNR, frequency response, etc.).

Interestingly that's not the case: Generally there's no clear correlation between measurements and sonic results with electronics (given decent linearity and not too high harmonic distortion).

 

[GirgleMirt]

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So is it that the high number of people who confirm that there are differences makes you cautious notwithstanding your conviction?

Absolutely not. Just take a look at the # of people who believe in supernatural; future telling, ghosts, astrology, card reading, reincarnation, god, audiphile cables, luck (walk under latter, broken mirror), magic, voodoo, etc.. You can find people to confirm you almost anything.