[me7]

There is some objective criteria to compare DAPs. First you need to draw a line between neutral audio reproduction and personal taste. A DAP that overemphasizes low frequencies is just as "wrong" as a DAP that has a bass roll-off. Neutrality can be measured (at least to some extent) with frequency response, harmonic distortion, background noise, stereo separation...

Perfect scores in such tests still don't guarantee a device that everyone will love because people have different preferences when it comes to EQs: some hate them (like me), some like more bass, some like more "clearity" for the vocals,...
There is no point arguing that the iPhone/iPod touch sound bad since they have proven themselves in RMAA tests. We can stay objective until here, but now taste kicks in and Apple is well known for implementing bad EQs in their DAPs.
Some people love altering the sound to their wishes and they are disappointed by the iPhone/iPod - not because the device sounds "wrong" but because it sounds too neutral.

 

[shigzeo]

I really wish hardware devs would allow parametric equalisation in DAPs and phones. Messing around with dinky presets and horrid 5-band 'EQs' is horrid. Apple have it completely backward, but at least haven't implemented a low of low-fi extras.

Cowon's is decent, but Meizu, of all the dinky EQ's, is the best implemented despite a certain amount of lost overhead. Rockbox is almost a requirement for DAPs, but of course will never work with phones unless used in a separate software layer/app.

 

[grokit]

It's too bad you can't "iMod" an iPhone.

I am a "typical Apple Fanboy who live in [a] Apple dream world", but since I can't see committing to at least $75 a month for a couple of years, I wouldn't buy one anyways.

I use a Nokia 5800 touch-screen "music phone" with 320k rips and it sounds great; can't wait to hear it with a Pico Slim! It's got a decent camera with a real flash too, and only costs $100 a year to make calls anywhere with a GoPhone card.

I'm pretty sure I will be able to stick the Slim on it and still take pictures

 

[EddieE]

There are of course objective things that come to mind with chosing a DAP -

Codec support, MSC Mode, File/Folder Browsing, and fun "extras" such as screen quality, video codecs, document viewing, UCI etc. I would personally list MSC mode alone and being stuck with tag browsing as objective cons but others might disagree.

When it comes to sound quality... yeah maybe. But if I think ipods sound bland and dull and someone else finds them to have an expansive soundstage etc, it does kind of shoot down that idea. I'm not going to say the ipod user is wrong and I'm right, because that would make no sense; if they enjoy the sound and I don't can either of us be convinced they infact enjoy it when they don't or vice versa. No.

I could point to things my DAP has - like BBE ViVA sound enhancement and say this is an objective benefit of sound quality, someone else could say they don't like the sound of it and again it's a stalemate.

Furthermore can a DAP ever be "audiophile quality"? Well it's a pretty vague and open-to-interpretation term to start with. If we take it to mean top-drawer sound quality, while I haven't heard the so-called audiophile players such as RWA Imod, hifiman etc, I find it hard to believe that a DAP will beat a source > DAC > Amp set up.

I have a pretty modest DAC/Amp set up hooked up to my computer and the improvement in sound quality is huge. I doubt many here who have DACs and Amps that cost hundreds more would call my set up "audiophile", so if that beats all the DAPs I have ever heard hands down, it kind of suggests a DAP will always be a second-tier listening device whoes merit is its convenience and portability.

 

[shigzeo]

EddiE - As a pre-amp, the AMP3 is an excellent DAP, though I contest whether it is 'audiophile' with earphones or without an amp. That way, it is impressive. But Audiophile is basically just a HiFi Enthusiast, nothing more or less.

Audiophiles often have less a grasp on SQ than engineers and trained musicians and the more I drag my feet here and there, I find I trust audiophile's judgment less and less. I am an audiophile as are you and everyone on this board. I would venture to say that anyone with two ears who listens to music and likes it is an audiophile. Audio enthusiasts, people who want more, are in a different league. Audiophile is likes and dislikes and has nothing to do with a set standard, unlike what is (mostly) used in the engineering world.

We have few standards and break apart into cliques, disseminate this side of the fence while the other camp pays someone else to paint it. We just enjoy our personal experience, but a lot of audiophiles rely on the opinion of others as they don't trust their judgement. Then, places like Headfi have certain rites of passage: hating Bose, Monster, Apple; other sites hate RSA, ALO and Marantz - there is no standard at all - there are only cliques.

All of that said, if ALO and GR9 release their 30-pin to digital out/DAC module and other companies who are developing the same thing release similar objects, it will be very easy to succinctly place the bag over the cat, tie the top and wait till it suffocates: audio of enormous quality will be in the bag - the stench of what company produces the machine, will be all that we can complain about after ward.

 

[EddieE]

^ One of the best posts I've ever read on Head-fi

 

[shigzeo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EddieE /img/forum/go_quote.gif ^ One of the best posts I've ever read on Head-fi

Thank you... and such horrid spelling/grammar. Getting used to a 'new' keyboard.

 

[grokit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robjrock /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ha hah hah: 3Gs iPhone audiophile? One of the reasons why the Cowon & Samsung stood out is access to excellent quality sound enhancements, like quality bass boosts and customizable EQs. If I remember correctly all the iPhones and iPod Touches use the better Wolfson DACs, while the iPod classic uses the cheaper Cirrus DACs, which sound worse.

I just posted this earlier today on another thread after a little research, but as it is relevant here I will repeat myself:

"There seems to be some confusion as far which audio chipsets Apple uses in their portable devices.

"I found some info here that shows the Wolfson and Cirrus aren't the only DAC codecs in iPods/iPhones. Wolfson made the chips for the iPods until the [first] Classic came out, which used the Cirrus. The 1st gen iPhone and iPod Touch had the Wolfson, then switched to a Samsung integrated A/V chipset for audio, no Cirrus DAC. And the latest Classic has also abandoned the Cirrus for the same Samsung integrated A/V chipset.

"So unlike popular misconception, the 2nd/3rd generation iPhone/iPod Touch have NEVER used the Cirrus DAC codec, their 1st generations were still Wolfson, and it seems to be "all Samsung" moving forward."

 

[shigzeo]

Well, that sucks. I live in the Republic of Samsung where everything including bread and shyte cars are made by Samsung. I knew Samsung handled the memory of Apple devices, but having another portion in there is horrid news. That company has twisted this country unchecked for 50 years and I know of like 2 Koreans who trust them, the rest are worried what will happen if they get bigger.

Rant over.

Thanks for the info GroKit!

 

[theKraken11]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robjrock /img/forum/go_quote.gif If I remember correctly all the iPhones and iPod Touches use the better Wolfson DACs, while the iPod classic uses the cheaper Cirrus DACs, which sound worse.

The Wolfson is originally what the iPod classics used, but they stopped carrying it in the sixth generation.

 

[grokit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by theKraken11 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Wolfson is originally what the iPod classics used, but they stopped carrying it in the sixth generation.

Then they weren't Classics, they were Ipod Video 5.5g's before they discontinued them and called the new one the "Classic" iPod 6g when they started using Cirrus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by robjrock /img/forum/go_quote.gif If I remember correctly all the iPhones and iPod Touches use the better Wolfson DACs, while the iPod classic uses the cheaper Cirrus DACs, which sound worse.

Not all of them, just the 1st generation, then they switched to the integrated Samsung integrated A/V chipset on the iPhone/iPod Touch. The consensus seems to be that the Wolfson does better amped, and the Samsung is best unamped.

 

[Young Spade]

Well it's all going to be opinion based. Because we are humans and not machines, there can never be a definite (this is better) than others. Obviously certain headphones will reproduce sound much better than others and there's no arguing that, but what is PERCIEVED (and that seems to be forgotten by MANY people here) is what is someone is going to comment on.

If person A gets a pair of Bose Triports and they are their first "good" pair of IEMs, then they will give positive reviews about them, not to mention if they are already "bought" into the brand of Bose.
If person B gets a pair of Triports as a gift and already owns... lets say... a pair of Shure SE 530s, they might not post such positive reviews.

Is person A right or wrong? Is person B right or wrong? They are hearing the exact same sound (theoretically) but they perceive that sound differently based on past experiences; which is WHY this "problem" will never be solved.

In the end, you are going to either have to trust your ears or what you read. Sadly we cannot all listen to the same IEMs with the same equipment and same songs, but we can listen to our music and comment on what we HEAR and compare that to what we have HEARD before.

Just my opinion

Feel free to comment on it. And kudos to you shigzeo for that insightful post

 

[rymd]

well, I don't really want to post something dumb (dumb is relative btw yeay following trends)
but though i agree the iphone sounds great, fairly neutral and such, I just don't like it.
err.. what all you guys said above
..

 

[EdwardUong]

Hey. The chipset in Walkman X is more advanced than iPod. Don't you think so

 

[theKraken11]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grokit /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then they weren't Classics, they were Ipod Video 5.5g's before they discontinued them and called the new one the "Classic" iPod 6g when they started using Cirrus.

That's my fault, I don't use iPods so I assumed they had the same name. They did in fact change it for the sixth generation, though.