[laevi]

Hi,
 
I wasn't sure which subforum to ask this, but I've wondered if the increased treble response of the HD800 would compensate for my diminished hearing towards the upper frequencies? A frequent criticism of the HD800 is that its treble can be relatively overly bright, but considering that high frequencies (i.e. > 6 kHz) need more dB to sound equally loud as mid-frequencies (i.e. 1kHz) to my ears, do my old ears alleviate this unwanted characteristic of the HD800?
 
And just out of curiosity, am I missing much from music by basically being deaf to frequencies above 10 kHz?

 
Thanks.

 

[RRod]

10k is high enough to get all the written notes you're likely to come across.  If you started life really liking the sound of cymbals and high piccolo notes, then sure, you might feel something missing from such sounds as you get older, but you wouldn't hear any gaping holes in the musical content.
 
My HD800s have a slight peak around 9-11k that has never really bothered me.  If the peak matches up to your hearing attenuation in its range, then sure, the cans might sound a bit "better" to you, but it's subjective anyway:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEdFh6QjhFcjh2SGc/view?usp=sharing

 

[bigshot]

Piccolos don't go above 10kHz either.

 

[laevi]

Thanks for all the replies!

 

[RRod]

Harmonics of instruments playing in the c7-c8 range can get up there, so certain instruments could sound more sine-like if you're missing above 10k.

 

[bigshot]

There aren't many acoustic instruments that get that high, and even the ones that do, that is the highest end of their range. Most people could certainly hear if it was rolled off above 10kHz, but we listen to music in our cars, on headphones and on portable stereos all the time that stop at 10kHz and it doesn't bother us. Even with the best equipment, by the time you get to 14kHz or so, there isn't anything left. (with the exception of synthesizers specifically using those frequencies for tonal effects.)
 
Most audiophiles overemphasize the importance of the 10kHz to 20kHz range. It's the least important octave in the audible range.

 

[cjl]

  There aren't many acoustic instruments that get that high, and even the ones that do, that is the highest end of their range. Most people could certainly hear if it was rolled off above 10kHz, but we listen to music in our cars, on headphones and on portable stereos all the time that stop at 10kHz and it doesn't bother us. Even with the best equipment, by the time you get to 14kHz or so, there isn't anything left. (with the exception of synthesizers specifically using those frequencies for tonal effects.)
 
Most audiophiles overemphasize the importance of the 10kHz to 20kHz range. It's the least important octave in the audible range.

10k-20k (more realistically 10k-17k or so) is still quite important in accurate reproduction of a lot of music though. Basically no fundamentals from any instrument will ever be that high, true, but there are still important harmonics up there, and if you low-pass filter your music at 10k, it'll be very noticeable in many cases.

 

[bigshot]

Not as much as filtering any other octave in the audible spectrum. Take music that is low passed at 10kHz. Compare that to one that has everything between 500Hz and 1kHz filtered out. No contest. In a lot of music, you wouldn't even notice that top octave was gone at all.
 
Music that stops at 10kHz is still perfectly listenable. You listen to that every day in your car or with your computer speakers or with your TV set, even really good sounding ones. Response imbalances above 10kHz are much less important than anywhere else in the range, unless you are talking about a super loud spike that is narrow and you can't easily hear it, just feel it as a jabbing pain in your ears. These frequencies are just the sound around the notes, not the notes themselves because no instrument has fundamentals up that high, and the ear doesn't perceive these frequencies as musical notes, just as high frequency squeals.
 
Priorities are as important as thresholds. People worry way too much about the fringes of sound and not enough about the core.

 

[Strangelove424]

When EQing, I've noticed the 16k range is related to airiness, and really only applies to classical because of the recording techniques and large space. There are no fundamentals, or even harmonics that I can really tell of up there, but there does seem to be some environmental or ambient noise. I'd recommend to the OP playing with EQ to get a sense of what's up there. Whether that's important sound info is personal preference partially. You would need to be in a quiet listening environment to appreciate those subtleties, riding around in your car for example there's too much ambient road noise to even worry about the room noise in your recording. 
 
Personally, I think 16k is fine and all for room noise, but way too many audiophiles focus on high frequency information because it's been marketed to them for high sampling rates. What matters to me more extension-wise, and what is truly the hardest thing to reproduce (from a mechanical perspective) is the stuff below 25hz.... That's my drug of choice. One of them anyway. 

 

[RRod]

  Not as much as filtering any other octave in the audible spectrum. Take music that is low passed at 10kHz. Compare that to one that has everything between 500Hz and 1kHz filtered out. No contest. In a lot of music, you wouldn't even notice that top octave was gone at all.
 
Music that stops at 10kHz is still perfectly listenable. You listen to that every day in your car or with your computer speakers or with your TV set, even really good sounding ones. Response imbalances above 10kHz are much less important than anywhere else in the range, unless you are talking about a super loud spike that is narrow and you can't easily hear it, just feel it as a jabbing pain in your ears. These frequencies are just the sound around the notes, not the notes themselves because no instrument has fundamentals up that high, and the ear doesn't perceive these frequencies as musical notes, just as high frequency squeals.
 
Priorities are as important as thresholds. People worry way too much about the fringes of sound and not enough about the core.

 
I don't think anyone would argue that 500-1kHz is more important than 10-20.  That's exactly why we never bothered developing instruments with higher fundamentals or adding higher strings/pipes to our pianos and organs.  It still holds to the OP that what he will be (potentially) missing is a bit of sheen on the high parts, that add just that little bit of richness during intimate listening sessions (the cherry on top as it were).

 

[bigshot]

  When EQing, I've noticed the 16k range is related to airiness

 
I would bet that your EQ has a lot of spill below 16kHz. Graphic equalizers in particular have overlapping curves of frequencies. The number on the pot is the center of the curve, the Q range spreads across a couple of pots with lower volume at the ends.

 

[bigshot]

  richness during intimate listening sessions (the cherry on top as it were).

 
Wow! The way you say it sounds sexy!

 

[Strangelove424]

   
I would bet that your EQ has a lot of spill below 16kHz. Graphic equalizers in particular have overlapping curves of frequencies. The number on the pot is the center of the curve, the Q range spreads across a couple of pots with lower volume at the ends.

 
Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if it was secretly a parametric EQ. So if the split is between 8/16khz, I'm probably adjusting things down to 12khz when I play with 16. 

 

[RRod]

  When EQing, I've noticed the 16k range is related to airiness, and really only applies to classical because of the recording techniques and large space. There are no fundamentals, or even harmonics that I can really tell of up there, but there does seem to be some environmental or ambient noise. I'd recommend to the OP playing with EQ to get a sense of what's up there. Whether that's important sound info is personal preference partially. You would need to be in a quiet listening environment to appreciate those subtleties, riding around in your car for example there's too much ambient road noise to even worry about the room noise in your recording. 
 
Personally, I think 16k is fine and all for room noise, but way too many audiophiles focus on high frequency information because it's been marketed to them for high sampling rates. What matters to me more extension-wise, and what is truly the hardest thing to reproduce (from a mechanical perspective) is the stuff below 25hz.... That's my drug of choice. One of them anyway. 

 
I think it's fine for someone to dwell over frequency data that's in their audible range.  People kvetching about frequency data outside their audible range is of course another matter.  Bass you can't hear can at least shake ya, but treble you can't hear is just useful for annoying pets.
 
To help the OP a bit, here's a sample of some muzak, along with the same sample with a 10k kaiser-sinc applied, and a file of the difference (the squeally stuff):
Original:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEaV9wMFlnbkVSMWc/view?usp=sharing
Filtered:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEeTVVMUNXb2dfSU0/view?usp=sharing
Difference:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwmVtb5IwniEMTYtbUdXQW1Cc3c/view?usp=sharing
 
 

   
Wow! The way you say it sounds sexy!

 
Ear sex is best sex.

 

[Strangelove424]

   
I think it's fine for someone to dwell over frequency data that's in their audible range.  People kvetching about frequency data outside their audible range is of course another matter.  Bass you can't hear can at least shake ya, but treble you can't hear is just useful for annoying pets.

 
I do care about room noise, and appreciate headphones that can reproduce it properly. It's one reason I like an open-back somewhat airy presentation. But I wouldn't say I dwell on it. It's mainly just hiss. If the FR graphs show relatively neutral presence in that region, and I can hear the room noise when the track starts, I'm done worrying about it.
 
Low bass is a great joy for me, not just the shake, but that sublime sensation that you can feel the room and the instrument breathing together. Cello, for instance, is a string instrument, not a woodwind or even percussion, and yet it breathes! That's magical to me.
 
 

Ear sex is best sex.

Don't forget the accessories.