Does Squeezebox 3 do bit-perfect output?

[NeoVibe]

but Solude was talking about 16bit, 44.1kHz material...

or do you mean that the output would be 24bit but the original data would still be preserved, even if the DAC is receiving a 24bit signal? (something like 16bit+volume information :s )

 

[Grahame]

This has been discussed at great length on this thread in the slim devices forum with the CEO / designer of the SB trying to educate people on the finer points of SNR and preserving information. It is probably worth your time to read as he does a good job of clearing up some of the common misconceptions.

I particularly liked his "This is completely, 100% wrong. It doesn't matter how many people say this, it is still wrong." quote.

 

[Zenja]

From that thread, I think this pretty much sums it up:
Quote:

There are two different issues here, and I think they might be causing some confusion. One is whether information is lost when you lower the volume; in other words, is it possible to reconstitute the original signal from the signal with lowered volume? The answer to this in the case of the SB (and probably TP) is that there is a certain range from 100 down for which this is possible, but that below some setting it isn't any longer (I think this is 35dB, so to lowest setting is 30 on the 100 point scale). But of course this is not a question of much practical interest. Another question is signal/noise ratio of the signal going to a DAC. In that case the issue above is probably tototally unimportant, and the only issue is how much of the dynamic range of the DAC is being used. Any digital signal with lower than max volume will suffer reduced S/N, and it shouldn't matter much, if at all, if it is slightly below 30 or slightly above 30.

So yes, if you attenuate digitally up to a certain point, it's still bit-perfect, you preserve all the information. However, the analog result coming out of the DAC won't be the same because the output has a certain SNR and decreasing the amount of signal coming out makes that ratio worse.

 

[Coltrane]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nelamvr6 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Whatever dude. You must have a lot of time on your hands. Merry Christmas.

So knowing stuff means you have too much time on your hands? How about an 'I stand corrected' and move on instead of attempting to insult someone who is answering the OPs question.

 

[nelamvr6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltrane /img/forum/go_quote.gif So knowing stuff means you have too much time on your hands? How about an 'I stand corrected' and move on instead of attempting to insult someone who is answering the OPs question.

You and I have different opinions. It is not a matter of one being incorrect.

I still believe that my opinion is correct and your's is not, but I'm not dumb enough to believe that my opinion is the be all and end all.

I stated an opinion, you stated your's as if it was a matter of fact. It is not.

I don't need to state that I stand corrected, I was correct from the beginning, according to my way of viewing things. I won't try to elicit an 'I stand corrected" from you for a simple difference of opinion.

You do things your way, I will do things mine. A feature or option is not disabled if it can still be adjusted inadvertently in my opinion.

Happy New Year.

 

[NeoVibe]

thanks Grahame and Zenja. As usual, no subject in audiophile-land is as simple as it looks

 

[Coltrane]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nelamvr6 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You and I have different opinions. It is not a matter of one being incorrect. I still believe that my opinion is correct and your's is not, but I'm not dumb enough to believe that my opinion is the be all and end all. I stated an opinion, you stated your's as if it was a matter of fact. It is not. I don't need to state that I stand corrected, I was correct from the beginning, according to my way of viewing things. I won't try to elicit an 'I stand corrected" from you for a simple difference of opinion. You do things your way, I will do things mine. A feature or option is not disabled if it can still be adjusted inadvertently in my opinion. Happy New Year.

Sigh.

Your clearly do not pay attention to detail. Happy New Year!

 

[Mr.Shadow]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmo66 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi, Wud like to know if squeezebox 3 does bitperfect output. And does it have ASIO support? Also, I would primary be listening to music on my Bose Triport Headphones(know they arent the best around) , so is the headphone amp on the SB3 good enough? And does it have a volume control for the headphone jack? My alternative was to get a EMU0404 USB (source = laptop). Reason being its bit-perfect output and good headphone amp. Dont need the recording capabilities at all. The bitperfect output is important to me so that I can get a great DAC later. Can someone plz help me out Thx

The SB3 is near perfect as a transport, seriously !
At it's price, it outperforms devices cost 20 times more, and this is not a exaggeration, it was tested against transporters costing 20 times more and did his job excellently.

I had EMU 0404 prior to purchasing the SB3; moving to the SB3 was a day and night difference for me, they are in totally different leagues.

Adding a DAC to the SB3 will not be a smart thing to do, it will be a crime

The SB3 DAC is pretty good, do not underestimate it.

when the day will come and you will feel that you want more, simply send it to an upgrade, this device has an amazing potential in the analog department, upgrading it does the justice for it and makes it a killer source.


As the previous members stated, the Volume attenuation of the the SB3 is digital, but it can be fixed to the digital output in case you want, it is very useful when working with an external dac.

It can also perform as a Pre amp and connect it directly into the power amp in a speaker rig.

Aside from that, do yourself a favor, and before you consider any dacs or upgrades, upgrade your headphones

Good luck !

 

[nelamvr6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltrane /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sigh. Your clearly do not pay attention to detail. Happy New Year!

But obviously you do, right?

(Recheck your spelling in the above quote.)

Happy New year!

 

[Mr.Shadow]

nelamvr6:
I think you are wrong, if you put the volume level on "100", there is no loss of data or SNR, which is equal for Fixing the Digital output.

IMO, Fixing the digital output is just a software bypass of the attenuation, it's like disabling
Don't forget that the volume attenuation is a software based algorithm, manipulating the data using the internal CPU the SB3 has, so I don't see any good reason why it won't be equal to "variable output with Volume level=100".

If you have a good statement/argument why you think you are right, then I would like to see it, otherwise it's just speculations.

I hope you don't find this comment offending, it's just a friendly discussion

 

[pbirkett]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Shadow /img/forum/go_quote.gif The SB3 is near perfect as a transport, seriously ! At it's price, it outperforms devices cost 20 times more, and this is not a exaggeration, it was tested against transporters costing 20 times more and did his job excellently. I had EMU 0404 prior to purchasing the SB3; moving to the SB3 was a day and night difference for me, they are in totally different leagues. Adding a DAC to the SB3 will not be a smart thing to do, it will be a crime The SB3 DAC is pretty good, do not underestimate it. when the day will come and you will feel that you want more, simply send it to an upgrade, this device has an amazing potential in the analog department, upgrading it does the justice for it and makes it a killer source. As the previous members stated, the Volume attenuation of the the SB3 is digital, but it can be fixed to the digital output in case you want, it is very useful when working with an external dac. It can also perform as a Pre amp and connect it directly into the power amp in a speaker rig. Aside from that, do yourself a favor, and before you consider any dacs or upgrades, upgrade your headphones Good luck !

I agree. It is very good for what it is and what it costs. I've added a DAC to mine, and yes it does make a difference, but to be honest i could have quite happily lived with the SB3 if i couldnt have afforded a DAC. It definitely, categorically sounded better to me than the EMU 0404 it replaced, and considering i still regard the 0404 as one of the better bargains around, thats no mean feat.

 

[Mr.Shadow]

IMO, an Upgraded SB3 will be a better source than the Stock SB3-> and a good DAC combo.
I suggest you try and see for yourself

All in all it is a great device even as stock

 

[nelamvr6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Shadow /img/forum/go_quote.gif nelamvr6: I think you are wrong, if you put the volume level on "100", there is no loss of data or SNR, which is equal for Fixing the Digital output. IMO, Fixing the digital output is just a software bypass of the attenuation, it's like disabling Don't forget that the volume attenuation is a software based algorithm, manipulating the data using the internal CPU the SB3 has, so I don't see any good reason why it won't be equal to "variable output with Volume level=100". If you have a good statement/argument why you think you are right, then I would like to see it, otherwise it's just speculations. I hope you don't find this comment offending, it's just a friendly discussion

No, I'm not disputing that maxing the volume provides bit-perfect digital output, my contention is that if you want bit-perfect digital output you should set the digital volume to "fixed" in the Player Settings.

If you are relying on the volume control you may be disappointed if you or someone in your household inadvertently changes the volume control. All of a sudden you don't have bit-perfect output.

 

[Mr.Shadow]

You still got it wrong I'm afraid:
The volume level doesn't affect the Bit-Perfect output, unless the volume is below "30".
yes, you heard it right, it is possible to keep all the data that was in the original signal while lowering the volume.

The affect it will have is the SNR (Sound to Noise Ratio) that the DAC will have, when you lower the volume, you lower the SNR.
Why ?
Because every electronic device has a certain amount of noise, which is constant. now, when the signal is being passed, there is a a ratio between the signal level and the noise level.
When you lower the volume, you lower the signal, but the noise is kept in the same level, thus, the signal to noise ratio is getting inferior to when you put the volume at "100". all this happen while you still get "bit-perfect", and this is why Bit perfect is not the issue here.

Just my 2 cents

 

[eyeteeth]

I was google-ationing something else but saw this and as I've just gone through the difference between fixed and variable thought I'd chime in. I agree with nelamvr6. My SB was a gift and at first I was disappointed with it as a transport to the DAC1. It was pretty good but it was *off* somehow from what I was used to. I realized that the remote's volume buttons did change the volume and I looked up how if possible I could bypass. That done, music returned to form and in fact improved I think over what I had been used to previously with a Pioneer universal as transport. Someone else may find the sound quality difference between fixed and variable to an external DAC small or even nonexistent but it was large enough for me that I was going to discontinue use of the Squeezebox. Enabled, it was a significant and unacceptable step down for me. Disabled, it's a small step up.

I don't have hard numbers to prove anything and I won't argue about it but I read somewhere that the data is converted somehow, I just can't find that link. I do see "manipulated by the firmware" at the Wiki Slimdevices site although that's not very specific.

wiki.slimdevices-How to get Best Audio Quality

"If the volume control is enabled in the SqueezeBox then the digital information provided by slimserver is manipulated by the firmware and output through the digital output. This manipulation may cause some loss of information. If the digital volume control is switched off then the SqueezeBox simply plays what it receives and your DAC does the job it did before when it was directly connected to a CD transport."