Does power conditioning have a sound?

[infinitesymphony]

In the quest to completely tweak out my audio system, I stole a Furman PL Plus power conditioner from my guitar rig to test.

I tested the power conditioner with several setups, and in each case, the sound seemed "darker." Then, I slowly noticed that I was hearing at least the same amount of detail. I plugged all of my devices back into the wall and the sound became brighter again. These were not "night and day" differences; they were subtle, but still obvious to me.

Could this be the sound some people describe as "sucking the life out" of music? Might it only be a loss of artificial brightness?

 

[Jon L]

Power conditioners most definitely do have their own sonic signatures. Most traditional ones do tend toward a bit smoother, darker signature, though there are exceptions.

There really aren't too many "great" power conditioners out there, at any cost. These are units that do not rob the system of dynamic slam, sparkly air, or life, yet give the benefits of lower noisefloor, darker background, less hash, etc.

Most people would probably be better off getting a simple isolation transformer for their digital front-end, then plug other gear into the wall using decent aftermarket AC plugs and cords instead, unless you got >$2-3,000 to spare on such things as Audience AdeptResponse, expensive pure since-wave battery-backed conditioner, etc.

 

[Solude]

Pretty much nailed it. The more you filter the darker it gets.

The Shunyata Hydra uses next to no filtering and no surprise does little harm. Isolation and balanced transformers I've used definitely fall into the overfiltered sound.

I like straight wall or minimal filters. The Monster PRO 1000 I use has high current banks for my 'analog' devices that offers minimal filtering while everything else gets the digital bank over filter to keep it out of the amp and dac.

Or in product terms... Shunyata for dac and amps, PS Audio for transports, pc, lcd...

 

[Scrith]

Also consider that many of the people who claim that power conditioning equipment robs equipment of dynamics have not tried some of the more recent equipment.

I personally had never found a power conditioning device that didn't cause my amp (an ICE-powered PS Audio GCC-250) to sound worse until just recently. I had tried a PS Audio regenerator (their older P500 model, not the new one), a Balanced Power Technologies clean power center, PS Audio Ultimate Outlets (two models) and UPC-200 (two models). I had become content to run my amp out of the wall because that was the only power source that sounded right.

But recently I picked up one of the new PS Audio Duet outlets ($399 list, I think). For the first time, my amp sounded great when plugged into something other than a wall. And, after some break in, I believe it now sounds slightly better (better noise floor) out of the Duet. So don't give up hope. And take all those reviews from people who haven't listened to newer approaches with a grain of salt.

 

[applebook]

Yeah --"KA-CHING!"

 

[Duc]

I don't know if I'd say the sound gets robbed, but it does change. I run a Belkin Pure AV. Before I tried it, I didn't really have any problem with my sound, but it was 90 bucks and wanted to see. The sound was (to me) smoother and quieter, not that there was noise before but the stage seemed calmer. I don't know if this is desired, but to me it's favorable. Worth it IMO, + it has a regulated high draw plug for amps.

B

 

[infinitesymphony]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc The sound was (to me) smoother and quieter, not that there was noise before but the stage seemed calmer. I don't know if this is desired, but to me it's favorable.

So far, that's been my experience. It doesn't necessarily sound better or worse, just different. I might say better, overall, since none of the actual resolution or detail seems to be lost, and the presentation does seem a bit smoother and less forward, as you noticed.

-------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon L Most people would probably be better off getting a simple isolation transformer for their digital front-end...

I thought the only goal of an isolation transformer was to prevent ground loops. If there aren't any ground loop problems, one shouldn't be necessary, right?

-------

Why do amplifiers need power conditioners with "high current banks" when the amount of power coming out of both the wall and the power conditioner are roughly the same value? Isn't it the job of the gear itself to store and distribute the power?

Also, why would the amount of filtering make a device sound worse? If the power is cleaner, the device will receive cleaner power. Therefore, wouldn't all power conditioning be an "improvement," electrically speaking?

My original question should have been: Does power conditioning have a negative affect on sound quality, or do most people perceive it as a negative affect?

 

[Patrick82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony My original question should have been: Does power conditioning have a negative affect on sound quality, or do most people perceive it as a negative affect?

If you remove the harshness then people complain it sound lifeless. Having bright and edgy sound makes it sound more exciting because it compensates for a dull system.
I started with the brightest components and there were loads of edginess that had to be removed. Power conditioning, vibration isolation and ERS Paper removed them without any weaknesses. The background is just blacker with more detail. It's very smooth also, smoother and warmer than when I tried Mullard tubes + edginess from vibration.

Brightness is a good thing because then you know it works properly, it doesn't need to be covered up with mud if it's annoying. Fix the problems instead and you get rewarded with loads of smooth detail.

 

[AC1]

On top of removing harshness, power filtering does also reduce leading edge attack or dulls the micro dynamics. If you start playing with filtering devices (especially the ones not used for audio) you will experience this glaringly, where there is noise reduction, but also taking away of the impact of instruments. It is like overdampening. And for people who believe it or not you can over vibration isolate as well, same sort of effect, benefit in noise reduction but also at the cost of micro dynamics.

I do see Patricks point that the system/components can be dull to begin with, but for me it was finding equipment that did not have so much of a negative effect and choosing gear that had enough leading edge dynamics that reducing it some, I could live with.

As for if a power device can have a sound. Yes, and here is something interesting I experimented with. I did not like the sound of the Exactpower ep15a that much since it sucked out the midrange and moved it back a good amount compared to just the simple filtering device of the Audio Magic Stealth (or actually even straight from wall), but of course the ep15a did a better job of quieting the noise floor. Well I eventually plugged the Exactpower into the Stealth where it changed the tonality of the ep15a to that of the Stealth. To me, the Stealths were made to have a certain tonality which is probably why they are popular.

 

[Herandu]

Power filtering robs the equipment from drawing rushes of power from the mains. On normal low wattage home gear you might not notice a big change, but try it on a more powerful amplifier and notice how the bass is less extended. The sound might sound smoother, but what about true to the original sound?
In 3rd world countries where mains fluctuations are a big problem a power conditioner might protect your gear from mains damage, but if you have good mains supply I can't see the point. If you pay attaention when using a power filter you should be able to detect a drop in dynamic range. You sure can "see" it on a scope...

 

[infinitesymphony]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herandu Power filtering robs the equipment from drawing rushes of power from the mains. If you pay attaention when using a power filter you should be able to detect a drop in dynamic range. You sure can "see" it on a scope...

That's interesting... So a decrease in dynamic range can actually be measured?

Also, I was under the impression that power coming into a home was regulated around a set level (ex. 110-120 volts in the U.S.). If that's the case, how can equipment draw more power?

 

[rodentmacbeastie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herandu Power filtering robs the equipment from drawing rushes of power from the mains. On normal low wattage home gear you might not notice a big change, but try it on a more powerful amplifier and notice how the bass is less extended. The sound might sound smoother, but what about true to the original sound? In 3rd world countries where mains fluctuations are a big problem a power conditioner might protect your gear from mains damage, but if you have good mains supply I can't see the point. If you pay attaention when using a power filter you should be able to detect a drop in dynamic range. You sure can "see" it on a scope...

Oh oh, here we go. A balanced transformer inline should give more power for the bass transients and the transformer is storing a reserve of power. One could very easilty add some capacitance in between the transformer and the gear to help even more with the response. The statement that the bass is less is more likely that the bass is more controlled. The high should seem smoother, the soundstage more expansive, with more of a harmonic rightness. If you think that you should not condition power because you live in a developed country, you are 110% wrong. Most of AC noise, unless running off a generator which are noisy both in power and the machine, is create from all of the cell phone and radio towers, cordless phones, refrigerators, microwaves and so on... In third world countries they are less toys that float noise into your system so I have a hard time believing that statement. I live in Thailand for six months of the year and in Calgary, Canada the other six. My system goes back and for with me every year exept this last trip because of upgraditus and bad luck. The systems in both countries start with a good cord plugged into a good quality distribution block(DIY with surge protection) then directly to the gear, no conditioning.

The power is considerably cleaner in Phuket, Thailand(pop. 60000) than in the great oil rich city of Calgary(pop. 1000000). My power in that THIRD world country comes from a wind generated plant unlike the hydro and coal fired "eco-friendly" plants here in Canada. In Calgary, using a simple noise filter like this:

http://www.psaudio.com/products/noiseharvester.asp

results in a much cleaner sound, as best as I can compare it is maybe a little cleaner than Phuket. A balanced transformer however is a completely different ballpark if implemented properly!

Descent units start at around $1000, but a DIY design will cost you under $100, plus receptacles.

Now, when I lived on the tiny island of Koh Tao where there are countless diesel generators on the island I used a descent UPS with true sine wave correction. This limited the dynaimcs quite a bit but it was safe and clean where voltage spike over 300V are common.

If you are using a Monster Power or some other fairly inexpensive unit, they are merely filters and not transformers. Just filter after filter in series and while it is a cleaner sound, definately a loss of impact.

A good balanced power conditoner will shield a fair bit of RFI noise as well as AC line noice and make a blcker background, wider and more coherent soundstage, mids are more palpable, and because of the black background the dynamics and inner detail are greater. The moral of the story? If it is not an improvement in your system, it is a crappy conditioner. A descent balanced conditioner will make a more noticable improvement than a new CD player or amp in most systems.

Some designers and engineers will point out that the AC power is reponsable for 80% of the sound, hence so much work on power supplies.

On a side note, you are best to keep the transformer as far as reasonable from the gear. Six to ten feet or so should be enough. The bigger the transformer, the larger the magnetic field the further the distance.

If at all possible, your digital components and amps should be plugged in different transformers.

This time I go to Thailand I am not coming back for a long time and will buy or build a balanced power conditioner to go with my newly aquired Noise Harvester.

 

[Herandu]

Hmmm... The question is then: is the sound and dynamcis you now hear also the same that the recording studio put down in the 1st place?

 

[rodentmacbeastie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herandu Hmmm... The question is then: is the sound and dynamcis you now hear also the same that the recording studio put down in the 1st place?

I find that a lot of people need the microphonics and noise to please them. If you have listened to noisy(not necessarily) sound your whole life and then one day someone cleans it up, it will sound weird and take some getting used too. Same as vibration control. The microphics caused by vibration can sometimes give the sound a very slight reverb or hall effect. Get rid of the microphics and people will say it is sterile and clinical. Music_Man loves the studio DAC in the Presonus Central Station and you might have guessed by his name that he works in a studio. The DAC to some people may sound boring or clinical but I am sure that he will say accurate or just, right.

On the Music_man topic... If conditioning is bad, why does his studio have a $35000 power conditioner that is the size of a truck? Or for that matter, try conditioning you DVD and TV/projector and then tell me it is bad! Blacks are black, colour is more saturated, resolution is better... Or better yet, why not email some of the professional modders and designers and ask how important clean power is?

Now is all filtering good, no and here is the proof from a recent email conversation I had with diycable.com about their own products:


Hello,

I am looking for a good power conditioner idea. I have a 100w/ch class A solid state amp, DVD player, external DAC, front DLP projector, Sqeezebox 3 and a few small devices. I am mainly interested in a cleaner picture and sound. Your Exodus filters seem to be what I need, but what is the difference between the board and the complete filter. Does using two filters, one for digital and one for the rest, make a difference? If I hardwired the AC mains to a distribution block instead of outlets and plugs would there be any difference other than the convenienve and reduced cost? I have been steered toward Bybee filters from a friend but I do not understand if and why they would work. Large transformers is another option and would there be an advantage to using one with your filter? Any suggestions are highly recommended. Thanks for your time.

David


It is a complex subject and I'm afraid I don't have any simple easy answers. My preference is to use balanced power units wherever possible and RFI filters (like we sell on the board) on select outlets so that I can experiment with which devices respond to the RFI filter.

Kevin


Do you know of a good DIY design? I would like to keep the price under $500. Isn't a balanced power unit just a big transformer?
Thanks again for your time.

David


It is.... the problem is finding ones large enough. I stock an 822VA unit that actually would work. We use it on the UcD700 amplifiers because they need the dual 60V secondaries but it would work as a balanced power transformer also. They are also shielded between the primaries & secondaries so they won't pass HF line noise through the transformer.

You may also want to check out this thread also.

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/i...?topic=18443.0

Kevin


David,

You might want to check out this one. It is reasonably priced for what you get.

http://www.transcendentsound.com/power_supply.htm

Kevin


Another option is the Richard Gray Power Company i which I heard very good results as well as Balanced Power Technologies.

The only problem is expense! Then again a DIY should cost around $100 plus a chassis(wood is cheap, easy and OK) and outlets.

Here are some links to good quality transformers:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=122-715

http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/transformers.html

 

[Herandu]

If someone was using a transformer, rectifier, and two capacitors as ttheir PSU I could quite understand the reason to clean up any mains noise. However, the power supply in anything other than a power amplfier or a cheaply designed audio amplifier is not devoid of various supply control circuitry. So if you need a conditioner to do all that,, the designer of your gear has been a cheapskate.
Now being a designer myself and having designed gear that is still on sale in some instances I do find it hard to believe that a power conditioner should have such a dramatic effect on the AV gear in the way mentioned. If I had a piece of equipment that needed powere conditioned mains I would go and get myself a different piece of equipment because the gear is not properly designed, and I don't care how much it cost in the shop to buy. Price doesn't mean good or bad design.

As for the big power plants that studios have: studios can put a heavy load on the mains and this can cause fluctuations or even trip the local power relay station into a shutdown. I am talking from experience here. The power plants are there as a buffer that stores its own reserves if and when extra juice is required. Your local power relay station can only pump that many amperes out to every premises on its grid. Now, imagine paying good money for a session in a studio, and then you can't get any work done...