[redshifter]

Since the music industry started selling a lifestyle instead of music I believe they have become a negative influence on American society, promoting selfishness, greed, materialism, violence, and a deep disinterest of anything besides the newest, shiniest, most expensive thing to own.
 
If music piracy is the thing that brings down or at least transforms the music biz, then more power to it.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

I disagree redshifter, it is American society that has had a negative influence on the music industry and so it is American society that needs to be brought down or at least transformed. 
 
In any case, you need to show a proven link between piracy and improved values, which seems odd as piracy is about having a lower moral standard than others.

 

[redshifter]

 
Quote:

I disagree redshifter, it is American society that has had a negative influence on the music industry and so it is American society that needs to be brought down or at least transformed. 
 
In any case, you need to show a proven link between piracy and improved values, which seems odd as piracy is about having a lower moral standard than others.

 
You know, I'm really getting sick of your knee-jerk America bashing. Welcome to the ignore list, idiot.
 
Oh, and prog rock is horrible and a joke.

 

[jfeser2]

 
Quote:

Saying that artists have to ask us to pay them I can no longer agree on. They already asked us by putting a price on the item and it should be kind of logical that when theres a price on something one should pay for it.

 
I don't disagree with you, but most artists don't price their own work.  Personally, I don't want to give money to the record labels, but rather, to the artists.  In particular, pay what you want schemes have been successful, especially when the average price is reported to the buyer.  If people could pay the artists directly, and pay them what they thought was fair for the work, I wonder if piracy might decrease?  Probably not, but it would make me inclined to buy more music.

 

[rhythmdevils]

Quote:

I disagree redshifter, it is American society that has had a negative influence on the music industry and so it is American society that needs to be brought down or at least transformed. 
 
In any case, you need to show a proven link between piracy and improved values, which seems odd as piracy is about having a lower moral standard than others.

or at least a more flexible moral standard.  I'm a very moral person

 
I'm not sure it is American Society that is to blame either.  I was just reading the oil spill thread, and to be honest, corporate america strikes again here.  Profits over substance.  The fact that people buy the music just means they got suckered into it, it doesn't mean that's all they are about.  They clearly have another side, lying dormant because they haven't been sold anything they can understand that has more substance to it.  In the sixties there was heaps of great popular music sold to the masses.  I don't think we've gotten any stupider since then.  We're like fish chasing shiny lures and getting caught. 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

 
 
You know, I'm really getting sick of your knee-jerk America bashing. Welcome to the ignore list, idiot.
 
Oh, and prog rock is horrible and a joke.

You miss the point redshifter. Does music influence society or society influence music more? If you had said the same about British or French society I would still have turned that argument around. In no sense can it be an argument for piracy.

 

[ddrddrddrddr]

I'm pretty sure music has always been there to cater to all feelings and desires of the human experience. To say society have a negative influence on music is probably more like saying that the views of the listeners have become more liberal and accepting of more provocative music. I suppose it is like the same as other media, like TV and movies. Sex and violence have always been of interested to human beings as pass times,  an accepted niche just has to open up. In this aspect, the so called negative effect is only a side effect of a progressive society. You can't have freedom without susceptibility to abuse.
 
Now while it may not be the case, but in case your beef is with the trend of music, mostly along the rapping genre, that promotes violence and debauchery. I do believe it began as a form of empowerment that evolved to become more boastful and aggressive. Looks like everything takes on a life of its own.
 
So back on topic, I'm sure the reasons behind those who pirate music all have their own reasons. Human motivations never have to be black and white, I'm sure both avarice and indignation at the state of the music industry reinforces eachother to lead to the actions. It should be apparent by now that a moral zeitgeist is not going to take hold to show people piracy is unjust. Pirates are way over that since they are technically risking litigation to do what they do. Nor will the government be given leave to invade citizens' personal privacy countrywide on behalf of a capitalist interest.  The government can't waste the resource to effectively battle piracy regardless. Has the court battle of pirate bay been effective? http://news.cnet.com/8301-31001_3-20003952-261.html Nope, it didn't even stop the site itself, much less the internet.
 
None of the moral issues matter in the pragmatic sense. Laws without enforcement is not a law. Currently piracy is the status quo, and it's a battle between those who create software and those who use them without pay. It's being fought on a private arena, with the software producers creating walls against piracy and pirates easily bypassing them. The government is powerless. So if you want to end piracy, you'll have to do it by figurative force in the name of the industry.

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

In no sense can it be an argument for piracy.

It wasn't. Read this sentence he wrote:
 
 
Quote:

If music piracy is the thing that brings down or at least transforms the music biz, then more power to it.

 
Notice the "If" there. He's not saying piracy is beyond a doubt what is bringing down the industry and enlightening society. He's saying that something, anything, needs to force the industry to change. And piracy is, in my opinion, the best candidate right now. Unfortunately so far it's not done much besides make them whine and reach out to the long arm of the law. Proof, I think, that their business remains profitable.
 
Also, the Google search you linked which showed evidence of artist hurt didn't say much. One article mentioned that piracy has the benefit of increased exposure for artists. One was all about how two thirds of artists (in 2004, outdated) don't consider piracy a threat. Several were all about artist coalitions in Africa, relevant but not exactly what I had in mind. Others focused on issues with Napster, so are also outdated. One I read mentioned three artists: Madonna, Eminem, and Shakira I believe. None of them strike me as starving musicians. You give me an article where independent or relatively low-profile artists are really, truly hurting because of piracy, I'll give you my sympathy. And preferably they are speaking out on behalf of themselves, without their record company whining alongside them.

 

[jfeser2]

Quote:

Pirates are way over that since they are technically risking litigation to do what they do.

They aren't really though.  There have been no lawsuits related to Usenet or Rapidshare users, so these sources are litigation free, at least for now.  Most people who pirate music weren't put off at all by the lawsuits, or they just shifted how they pirate.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

It wasn't. Read this sentence he wrote:
 
 
 
Notice the "If" there. He's not saying piracy is beyond a doubt what is bringing down the industry and enlightening society. He's saying that something, anything, needs to force the industry to change. And piracy is, in my opinion, the best candidate right now. Unfortunately so far it's not done much besides make them whine and reach out to the long arm of the law. Proof, I think, that their business remains profitable.
 
Also, the Google search you linked which showed evidence of artist hurt didn't say much. One article mentioned that piracy has the benefit of increased exposure for artists. One was all about how two thirds of artists (in 2004, outdated) don't consider piracy a threat. Several were all about artist coalitions in Africa, relevant but not exactly what I had in mind. Others focused on issues with Napster, so are also outdated. One I read mentioned three artists: Madonna, Eminem, and Shakira I believe. None of them strike me as starving musicians. You give me an article where independent or relatively low-profile artists are really, truly hurting because of piracy, I'll give you my sympathy. And preferably they are speaking out on behalf of themselves, without their record company whining alongside them.

It had the appearance of an argument as to why piracy can be justified, as it may bring down the big bad music industry. But that completely ignores the whole new business models that have been developing over the past years from home recording on PC to streaming sites. The large multinational music corporations will always remain to manage the large multinational musicians and bands. You cannot manage Madonna and one of her tours out of a bedsite with a mate to help, which is what many bands at least start off with.
 
Sorry that those articles on musicians against piracy did not meet your requirements. I will try to find some that do.