[valcifyo]

Thanks for your sharing! I got more deep understanding about this part, It's quite useful.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

Quote:

 

Thanks for your sharing! I got more deep understanding about this part, It's quite useful.

???
 
Please explain...
 
Here is my quote that you failed to "quote".
 
What we need are cyborg implants that totally bypass the human ear and plug right into our brains.

See this is a joke FYI.
 
Great posts guys though! Well written and very informative. I must have read the Stereophile article about 10 times over the past several weeks.
 

 

[ramicio]

My science teacher in Jr. High was kind of a genius and talked way beyond most of the other students' level.  I remember him saying everyone's voice is different because of the shapes of every cavity in the head that has to do with sinuses and whatnot.  The same would be true for the ear canal.  Everyone's is different, and everyone's ear organs are different.  Even the exposed ear is different.

 

[kboe]

Different.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

Different.

x2

 

[kboe]

WHAT.....!   We agree on something.... How could this be? 

 

[shamu144]

You are correct. The measurment were done with mics. Although this paper do not pretend to cover what should be the ideal design goals for either FF or DF calibrated headphones, they suggest that the most realistic sounding model should be a mix of both. The figure above shows the theorical design goal (for the mean value at least) of a FF calibrated headphone (note it is far from a straight line).
 
The results of their study is perfectly transposable to the headphone listening experience, since they actually measure the HRTF for the sound pressure at the entrance of the eardrum, valid for loudspeakers and headphones.
 
 
Quote:

Very interesting thread. I've always wondered how different HRTF could be from one person to another. Nice to finally see some datas. Do you know how they did this testing? I assume they used mics in each individuals' ear canals? Rather than do the equal loudness testing which is very subjective (and would explain such variations).
 
Now what bothers me is that these datas still don't say anything about the differences between a free/diffused field (frontal) and a headphone (side) presentation. Is there any similar testing done with headphones? What would the result be, would there be similar variations between individuals? As long as we don't have those datas i think we can hardly conclude anything, can't we?
 
What kind of neutrality are we talking about anyway, compensated for equal loudness or flat ? I'm a bit confused here.

 

[shamu144]

I can't agree with you here. The results of this paper show that different people exposed to a same frequency and sound pressure will perceive it differently (as far as 10dB difference). It will indeed affect our individual capability to judge a playback equipment in term of frequency response and tonal balance.
 
Of course we are still able in a relative way to say when something sounds darker or brighter to our own ears, but we are not able to say if it will sound darker or brighter to someone else ears. If you are lucky and your HRTF is within the mean average, then you should perceive the same sound pressure level than the majority of people. But if your HRTF is not within this average, then you should not trust your own ears to decide or judge for others !!
 
 
Quote:

As a record producer (of jazz and world music) and a listener who also particularly enjoys classical music I'm very interested in how people hear. These graphs seem to show a +/- 2-3dB standard deviation in perceived loudness in the critical presence range of 2-6K. That would certainly make an obvious difference in how we hear, but I don't think it can account for how we differently judge transducers or other playback equipment in terms of frequency response/tonal balance. Since we're all locked into our own hearing, whatever it is, when we say something sounds bright or dark to us we're comparing it with other situations and experiences - concert hall acoustics, house sound amplification, home playback chains - that we're familiar with. There is no external standard, only differences between different experiences of music. If I hear a certain hp as dark in the 2-6K range it's in relation to other phones, speakers, or live music. Someone else should hear that hp as (relatively) dark too, no matter that one of us may be hearing everything in that range as significantly louder or quieter in relation to mids or lows than the other person.

 

[xnor]

Quote:

Of course we are still able in a relative way to say when something sounds darker or brighter to our own ears, but we are not able to say if it will sound darker or brighter to someone else ears. If you are lucky and your HRTF is within the mean average, then you should perceive the same sound pressure level than the majority of people. But if your HRTF is not within this average, then you should not trust your own ears to decide or judge for others !!

I don't see a problem with telling somebody that headphone A sounds darker or brighter than (the reference) headphone B, as long as both are circumaural for example.
And this is how most reviews are done or should be done.

 

[shamu144]

As long as both of you have similar HRTF, you are fine... But if you have a very different HRTF than him, then you should take extra care in comparing sounds, as he won't perceive them as you do. That is quite a fundamental learning from this paper, at least for me. That is also why you should always look for reviewer that fit your HRTF, or put simply, share your impressions of different gears.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 
I don't see a problem with telling somebody that headphone A sounds darker or brighter than (the reference) headphone B, as long as both are circumaural for example.

And this is how most reviews are done or should be done.

 

[xnor]

Can differences in HRTF significantly change how relative differences are perceived?
 
Anyway, I don't really rely on reviews (only) if I buy equipment.

 

[shamu144]

Have you actually read the first post of this thread ?
 
Quote:

Can differences in HRTF significantly change how relative differences are perceived?
 
Anyway, I don't really rely on reviews (only) if I buy equipment.

 

[xnor]

Quote:

Have you actually read the first post of this thread ?

Yes. I don't have access to the paper. You might want to read my question again.
 
With relative differences I mean differences between two headphones, regardless of how either headphone sounds to the listener.

 

[Iniamyen]

Quote:

 
With relative differences I mean differences between two headphones, regardless of how either headphone sounds to the listener.

 
In absolute terms (if there are such things) I would agree with you. However, with all the peaks and valleys that would exist in a headphone FR graph, as well as a HRTF, I think the problem is that the subjective terms we use to describe "bright," "veiled," etc... would be too hard to apply. It would be more of a language barrier than anything else

 

[mobbaddict]

Quote:

You are correct. The measurment were done with mics. Although this paper do not pretend to cover what should be the ideal design goals for either FF or DF calibrated headphones, they suggest that the most realistic sounding model should be a mix of both. The figure above shows the theorical design goal (for the mean value at least) of a FF calibrated headphone (note it is far from a straight line).
 
The results of their study is perfectly transposable to the headphone listening experience, since they actually measure the HRTF for the sound pressure at the entrance of the eardrum, valid for loudspeakers and headphones.
 

 
Thanks for the answer. To be more specific, the issue is that these graphs don't say how differently speakers and headphones are perceived by the human ear.
You seem to believe that HRTF is cancelled by headphones and that a headphone should be tuned to match an average HRTF, right? But how does a flat sounding headphone measure to the human ear? According to my audiologist's measurements of my ears (using a closed headphone), it's far from flat. It's actually closer to these HRTF graphs (but then are audiologist headphones flat or already FF/DF calibrated?). And if the ear's anatomy still played a major role in the way we perceive headphones, i wonder if these differences of perception between individuals would also exist with headphones.