[davo]

I was there last week and they still had several cartons of these in stock. I would guess that there are 24 or so in each carton so they have "plenty" still for sale.

Incidentally, for a salvage operation, they are very nice and helpful. Their customer service is terrific.

 

[chych]

Alright, bit myth... I myself am somewhat unclear on this but I do remember a little bit on it...

PCDPs use a different algorithm than normal DACs, "delta-sigma-delta" DAC or something like that, I forget what it is called. Normal DACs use a different interface/algorithm, thus the bit size totally cannot be related. For example, 1mhz on an AMD athalon is not the same as 1mhz on a 386, maybe 24mhz 486 is... ok bad analogy, but you get the point.

I think PCDPs use 1bit DSD dacs since they can be stuck in a portable much easier, but I bet it does not scale as well as whatever those big DACs use.

 

[immtbiker]

So that's why, Panasonic calls it "1-bit MASH". That is their technology, for DAC conversion, but I wonder what lab test analysis, would show, comparing a 1 bit pcdp to a 16-24 bit home standalone unit.
BTW, I was able to buy a D-25s from Silicone Salvage, but now I need the battery and AC power supply.
Sony has the BP2EX battery for $30.95, unless someone else has a better suggestion.

 

[chych]

Erm, any of you tech experts out there want to give the complete explanation on this bit thing in DACs? I know there is one but am not sure about it and would like to be refreshed on it... anyone?

 

[dvw]

1 bit DAC are delta-sigma DACs. That is just the way they do D to A conversion digitally as opposed to the earlier analog method. I am not going to go into the difference.

The advantage of 1 bit/delta sigma is that it's cheaper, more acurate (built-in monotonicity) and more scalable (16/24 bits resolution and sampling frequency). For example, it is also used in DSL modem ( a faster DAC is required in this case).

Today's DAC are all 1 bit (other than instrument), I am not awared of any DAC that still uses R2R ladder.

The 16 bit or 24 bit DAC in marketing refers to the resolution of the DAC itself not the conversion method. A 16 bit DAC will have an accuracy of 0.0015% and a 24 bit DAC is 0.000006%.

Both PCDP and home units uses 1 bit DAC. MASH and Bitstreams are different variation of it.

 

[coolvij]

thanx for the nice explanation, very helpful.

 

[Satori]

Thanks for the explanation.

So how do you find out if they use 16 or 24 bit resolution?

 

[dvw]

Well, if a manufacturer uses a 24 bit DAC, I think he will market as such. 24 bit is better than 16 bit right?

IMO, home decks will eventually be all 24 bit based on availability of chips. I checked the Crystal and Burr Brown site and it seemed like most of the new offering are all 24 bit.

PCDP is a different story. Because of the size of the player, the chips are highly integrated. Some chips even has headphone amp integrated. Until chips are available for PCDP, this is not going to happen.

BTW, many of the no name brand PCDP/ MP3 CDP that use the SAmsung chip still have line out. And because they uses separate head amp, they typically have better output power. My Comotron has 18 mW output.

 

[immtbiker]

Let us not forget that most recordings from the big record companies are only 16 bit. When you use an 18 or 24bit cd player, it is only interpreting it into 18/20/24 bit (or at least that is one I've been told by some high end experts). When they digitally remaster a recording, especially a jazz master from Japan,
they use 20 or 24 bit technology, but they charge $20-40 U.S. I have done side by side comparisons with expensive home decks with the same cd, playing at the same time switching back and forth, so there is minmal memory loss, and there is a big difference with the 24 bit over an 18 bit, using a 16 bit recording.
Depth and soundstage are bigger, but that could be my own interpretation, just as interconnect and speaker cables make a difference, but some people would disagree with me.
BTW, the 24 bit Jazz recordings sound unbelievable, but I cannot justify paying $35 for a CD, compared to a 10-20% difference a 320kbps mp3 from the net.
So I own a couple (24bit jazz cd's) for days that I really need a cymbal fix.

 

[dvw]

There are some very reasonable priced 20 bit recording. Narada for example uses 20 bit recording. If you like guitar music, I recommend Jesse Cook's Gravity. It has some very nice rim shot.

Redbook CD are 16 bit format. But with high resolution DAC, 18 to 20 bit for example, you should get better sound (at least in theory). I think the actual recording process has a lot to do with quality.

CDs from big companies generally lack quality.