[GCTonyHawk7]

Hello, I will start by saying I am not a real audiophile like most of you. I do enjoy FLAC, and download the 320 KB/s audio file before the smaller ones, but I'm not huge into it all. I use my onboard sound card that has 7.1, and optical out. That connects over optical to my Logitech Z5500 speaker system. From there, I plug in my Audio Technica ES7 headphones.

When I plug in the headphones, I actually have to crank the speaker volume to 100%, and the computer volume to around 90%. And for some movies with quiet audio, I have to use the speakers boost feature to gain the audio. Also, the ES7s don't have the bass that I really desire. The bass sounds good, but is just not loud enough for my liking and is overtaken by the amazing treble of these headphones.

So, I looked around, and discovered you guys. Learned all about headphone amps and convinced myself I needed one. I had my heart set on the iBasso P2 for its amazing quality, 3-level bass boost, and amazing gain.

I was about to order and told some of my friends in a chat room I was going to, and they essentially laughed at me. Saying I am wasting my money, and that it is useless. This kind of woke me up... what is the point? They claim it will degrade the quality of the audio... that can't be true? They claim I just need to boost the audio digitally within the decoders, and that will solve everything. I did this, and it is not what I was hoping for. A little louder, and I don't have to turn the headphones as loud to enjoy them.

Although, there is still something to be desired. Is a headphone amp what I want? Will it gain the bass and the volume without degrading the audio quality? Am I wasting $140? What do you guys think?

Thanks in advance.

 

[jamato8]

You might want to get the D2, which will use the USB and run from either your cd drive or hard drive and it will blow away whatever you have. You can also use it as a portable amp. As an amp/dac from the USB you will have something that you can hear a difference with.

 

[GCTonyHawk7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamato8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You might want to get the D2, which will use the USB and run from either your cd drive or hard drive and it will blow away whatever you have. You can also use it as a portable amp. As an amp/dac from the USB you will have something that you can hear a difference with.

Right, but that is going even $100 more, and loosing the bass boost I really want. It is hard to justify spending that much.

 

[jamato8]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GCTonyHawk7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Right, but that is going even $100 more, and loosing the bass boost I really want. It is hard to justify spending that much.

The P2 is 139 the D2 is 199. If you mainly want an amp then the P2 is a great little amp and with the bass boost, which is clean, you will get plenty of ear pounding gut wrenching bass. lol

I like the P2 as it offers excellent sound for a modest cost. What will be your source? Oh, your friends, if your system is done right, are very wrong that it will degrade the sound but then there are a lot of people that don't understand amplification and what is really going on.

 

[GCTonyHawk7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamato8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The P2 is 139 the D2 is 199. If you mainly want an amp then the P2 is a great little amp and with the bass boost, which is clean, you will get plenty of ear pounding gut wrenching bass. lol I like the P2 as it offers excellent sound for a modest cost. What will be your source? Oh, your friends, if your system is done right, are very wrong that it will degrade the sound but then there are a lot of people that don't understand amplification and what is really going on.

Well, the source of the audio will be my motherboard's sound; Realtek HD 7.1 sound. Has optical out going to my speakers, speakers have a headphone port. I plan on just plugging the P2 into the speakers and having it amp from there. So, the Z5500 Control Center works as my DAC, as it goes from the optical cable to my headphones.

Thank you so much for your help, I really do appreciate it.

 

[jamato8]

So you are going from your computer, to computer speakers that have a headphone out? In that case you might not be getting the best sound. You have too much between the amp and the source. Do you have a line out from the computer or a headphone out? I would go with the D2 and use the D2 dac chip. You would get much better sound coming off of the USB, I guarantee it.

 

[GCTonyHawk7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamato8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So you are going from your computer, to computer speakers that have a headphone out? In that case you might not be getting the best sound. You have too much between the amp and the source. Do you have a line out from the computer or a headphone out? I would go with the D2 and use the D2 dac chip. You would get much better sound coming off of the USB, I guarantee it.

Well, the connection from the sound card to the speakers is Digital. And the speakers are no slumps either, they are full THX, DTS, Dolby Digital, and various other things certified. So, I don't think they hurt the sound at all. I tried plugging the headphones into the back of the computer straight out, and it sounds the same to me, volume and sound quality-wise.

 

[jamato8]

So you have optical cable to the speakers and they have a dac that then converts the signal and you change the volume at the speakers? The optical cable handles a digital signal so one of your speakers must have a control center with the optical receiver and digital to analog converter and then a amplifier. Well certified speakers really doesn't mean much to me but if they sound great that is what counts. I still think the D2 would be the way to go.

 

[GCTonyHawk7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamato8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So you have optical cable to the speakers and they have a dac that then converts the signal and you change the volume at the speakers? The optical cable handles a digital signal so one of your speakers must have a control center with the optical receiver and digital to analog converter and then a amplifier. Well certified speakers really doesn't mean much to me but if they sound great that is what counts. I still think the D2 would be the way to go.

Yup, the Z5500s have a control center:

You set all your settings, adjust volume, all your in and outputs. It is great.

At this point, I don't think the D2 is really what I'm looking for. I am not looking ot enhance sound quality as much as I want to bass boost and amp it. I'm also on a budget. I just want it to make the sound louder so I don't have to adjust the speakers and computer so much when plugging in headphones, and I would like more bass. That and non-degraded audio, and I am a happy camper.

Do headphone amps really make the sound nicer, better, cleaner? I've never used one, so I don't know what to expect.

 

[Damian]

Hello GCTonyHawk7, welcome to Head-fi ... And I think it falls to me now to say as traditionally ... Sorry about your wallet.

I'd like to explain a small amount of how amps work, and then you can see why they can be important.

Firstly, the most common assumption about amps made by someone who hasn't investigated them is that all an amp does is increase volume - This isn't an entirely correct opinion. It can boost volume, but in most cases (and imo, I should also probably say) volume isn't a big problem, you shouldn't need to play something loud to hear small details. Also you will damage your hearing! And then the most important part of your listening setup is ruined

...Anyway, I said I'd explain amps didn't I, er, right, back to that.
Well sound is shifts in electrical current, within a wire. In the case of PC audio, when you play something on your PC, that digital information is sent to a DAC (Digital to Analog Converter), which turns the binary information into electrical fluctuations, which will be used to excite a magnet within speakers/headphones, which creates the mechanical motion and vibrates the air, which we can hear.

However, the signal directly from the DAC is far too weak to drive the magnets by itself! It needs to be passed onto another circuit, an amplification circuit.

So even when you use onboard sound, you need to be using an amp otherwise your speakers/headphones wouldn't be getting enough power to make any noise.

But it's that you should take away with you; Speakers/Headphones are an electrical load, and require power to function as effectively as possible. How much raw power an amp can push will generally equate to louder and louder volumes, but if it can't deliver this power properly, you'll have a lot of sound but it will be poor quality.

The reason being: The diaphragm of headphones/speakers vibrate in response to the electrical current they are receiving; If they aren't receiving the right amount not just the most amount possible, the diaphragm won't move to recreate the sound accurately. It will just wobble wildly and imprecisely.

And generally, if you are using the standard amp from a device such as your computer or a CD player, the amp is cheap, and can't deliver power intelligently, just loudly. I know you are specifically talking about loudness so I know that is what you are looking for, but bear in mind a good amp can deliver the same detail as a bad amp at lower volumes, so perhaps you can help your ears? Though I don't mean to sound like I'm lecture you ... You can make your own choices it's just something good to keep in mind.

I hope that helps you and you didn't already know that otherwise sorry

And as far as degrading quality, I can only see 2 ways that would ever happen; 1) You are going from the headphone port to the amp, in that case the audio signal goes DAC>Amp[headphone-out]>Amp again, and the more things in the signal path the more it's getting jumbled up (your computer would probably have a line-out port, which goes straight from the DAC without going through an internal amplification circuit - This should be used not the headphone port) or 2) You actually had an awesome DAC/amp circuit and you replaced it with another which was worse

 

[GCTonyHawk7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hello GCTonyHawk7, welcome to Head-fi ... And I think it falls to me now to say as traditionally ... Sorry about your wallet. I'd like to explain a small amount of how amps work, and then you can see why they can be important. Firstly, the most common assumption about amps made by someone who hasn't investigated them is that all an amp does is increase volume - This isn't an entirely correct opinion. It can boost volume, but in most cases (and imo, I should also probably say) volume isn't a big problem, you shouldn't need to play something loud to hear small details. Also you will damage your hearing! And then the most important part of your listening setup is ruined ...Anyway, I said I'd explain amps didn't I, er, right, back to that. Well sound is shifts in electrical current, within a wire. In the case of PC audio, when you play something on your PC, that digital information is sent to a DAC (Digital to Analog Converter), which turns the binary information into electrical fluctuations, which will be used to excite a magnet within speakers/headphones, which creates the mechanical motion and vibrates the air, which we can hear. However, the signal directly from the DAC is far too weak to drive the magnets by itself! It needs to be passed onto another circuit, an amplification circuit. So even when you use onboard sound, you need to be using an amp otherwise your speakers/headphones wouldn't be getting enough power to make any noise. But it's that you should take away with you; Speakers/Headphones are an electrical load, and require power to function as effectively as possible. How much raw power an amp can push will generally equate to louder and louder volumes, but if it can't deliver this power properly, you'll have a lot of sound but it will be poor quality. The reason being: The diaphragm of headphones/speakers vibrate in response to the electrical current they are receiving; If they aren't receiving the right amount not just the most amount possible, the diaphragm won't move to recreate the sound accurately. It will just wobble wildly and imprecisely. And generally, if you are using the standard amp from a device such as your computer or a CD player, the amp is cheap, and can't deliver power intelligently, just loudly. I know you are specifically talking about loudness so I know that is what you are looking for, but bear in mind a good amp can deliver the same detail as a bad amp at lower volumes, so perhaps you can help your ears? Though I don't mean to sound like I'm lecture you ... You can make your own choices it's just something good to keep in mind. I hope that helps you and you didn't already know that otherwise sorry And as far as degrading quality, I can only see 2 ways that would ever happen; 1) You are going from the headphone port to the amp, in that case the audio signal goes DAC>Amp[headphone-out]>Amp again, and the more things in the signal path the more it's getting jumbled up (your computer would probably have a line-out port, which goes straight from the DAC without going through an internal amplification circuit - This should be used not the headphone port) or 2) You actually had an awesome DAC/amp circuit and you replaced it with another which was worse

Wow, very helpful. Thank you so much for explaining all that.

Although, I think towards the end, you may be wrong. Since the motherboard has an Optical out, it never converts it into analog to send out. It sends its raw digital signal through the cable to the speaker controller. So, at this point, the speaker controller is receiving the same information without any degrade in quality. So, in the end, I don't think plugging the headphone amp into the speaker controller should have any quality loss from plugging it directly into the computer.

I may be wrong, but as far as I know, that is how optical is supposed to work, and it is why it sounds much better.

Again, thank you to both of you for helping me clear this all up. I am really leaning more and more to buying the iBasso P2.

 

[Damian]

Yes, that's correct.
While the signal is digital, what's being passed onto the DAC is identical whether it's being passed on directly from within your computer or transmitted through a cable to a digital receiver (well there is something related to timing in transmitting and receiving digital signals, which causes something called jitter ... However that's another story for another day).

So then the only difference between playing directly from your motherboard headphone port compared to your Logitech headphone port is going to be which DAC is better (the DAC which converts the signal to analog in your motherboard, or the DAC receiving the digital signal at the speakers).
I'd hope the Logitech DAC would be better so in fact the sound quality should then be better than directly from your motherboard.
But remember for then getting the analog signal to an external amplifier you add yourself, it is best that the signal is passed on directly from the DAC... If you have to use a headphone out port the signal is already amplified from the DAC and then that amplified signal is sent to your external amplifier, which isn't ideal at all.
So instead of using any headphone out port you should find an audio-out port, which is the signal directly from the DAC without pre-amplification.

I don't know the quality of either the DAC or amplification circuit within the Logitech speakers, better than your motherboard perhaps... But I would probably agree with Jamato8 that you should seriously consider the iBasso D2 and then you can connect the amp digitally the way you have your speakers connected (except this time through USB instead of optical). The quality of the DAC and amp are very important for maintaining the authenticity of sound, and can and do make very dramatic improvements. And this way you get a decent amp and DAC in one, for just a small amount more... And if that doesn't work for you well... At least you'll know. But I'm confident you'll be very happy with the improvements you get compared to using your source PC or speakers DAC/amp, and definitely it will help you with your problem at the very least.

...Although you can buy a separate dedicated DAC later mind you, if you want to just try the P2 now and then feel you want to see what difference a DAC will make (and I'm confident it will make a difference).
Actually I wanted a P2 and now am sold on the idea of the D2 so excuse me if I sound like a sales person

Well the D2 is lighter and mostly smaller compared to the P2, but also includes a (theoretically) good DAC! How could one resist and not get the D2 over P2 I tell you!
Also I guess it's just comforting knowing the signal the amplification circuit is receiving is identical no matter which computer I plug it into using USB, so I can use it anywhere on any computer without potentially compromising signal quality from bad source DAC...

 

[mew1838]

Arghhh this thread also makes me wanna get the D2.....I know my the laptop onboard audio is not fantastic but it still doesn't warrant me spending $200+ on the D2....Well, maybe that will change with the D2000

 

[GCTonyHawk7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, that's correct. While the signal is digital, what's being passed onto the DAC is identical whether it's being passed on directly from within your computer or transmitted through a cable to a digital receiver (well there is something related to timing in transmitting and receiving digital signals, which causes something called jitter ... However that's another story for another day). So then the only difference between playing directly from your motherboard headphone port compared to your Logitech headphone port is going to be which DAC is better (the DAC which converts the signal to analog in your motherboard, or the DAC receiving the digital signal at the speakers). I'd hope the Logitech DAC would be better so in fact the sound quality should then be better than directly from your motherboard. But remember for then getting the analog signal to an external amplifier you add yourself, it is best that the signal is passed on directly from the DAC... If you have to use a headphone out port the signal is already amplified from the DAC and then that amplified signal is sent to your external amplifier, which isn't ideal at all. So instead of using any headphone out port you should find an audio-out port, which is the signal directly from the DAC without pre-amplification. I don't know the quality of either the DAC or amplification circuit within the Logitech speakers, better than your motherboard perhaps... But I would probably agree with Jamato8 that you should seriously consider the iBasso D2 and then you can connect the amp digitally the way you have your speakers connected (except this time through USB instead of optical). The quality of the DAC and amp are very important for maintaining the authenticity of sound, and can and do make very dramatic improvements. And this way you get a decent amp and DAC in one, for just a small amount more... And if that doesn't work for you well... At least you'll know. But I'm confident you'll be very happy with the improvements you get compared to using your source PC or speakers DAC/amp, and definitely it will help you with your problem at the very least. ...Although you can buy a separate dedicated DAC later mind you, if you want to just try the P2 now and then feel you want to see what difference a DAC will make (and I'm confident it will make a difference). Actually I wanted a P2 and now am sold on the idea of the D2 so excuse me if I sound like a sales person Well the D2 is lighter and mostly smaller compared to the P2, but also includes a (theoretically) good DAC! How could one resist and not get the D2 over P2 I tell you! Also I guess it's just comforting knowing the signal the amplification circuit is receiving is identical no matter which computer I plug it into using USB, so I can use it anywhere on any computer without potentially compromising signal quality from bad source DAC...

See, one issue my mother board's sound card has, is that it can not output a digital and analog signal at the same time. So, I can not use headphones at the same time I use my speakers because the output is taken up by the digital.

Another weird little issue it has is that I can not play an analog line in over my optical out. I have my Wii hooked up to my computer and the sound enters over a line-in port. I can then not play my Wii with sound over my Z5500 without connecting an analog cable as well. It seems to play over the analog cable just fine, but I have to switch sources on my speakers each time I play Wii.

Honestly, I am not sure the D2 is what I want. The issue at hand for me is that the volume is too quiet on my headphones unless I essentially max out both the system and speaker's volumes. The other problem is that the Z5500 offers no control over the bass over the headphones, and I would like a boost on it.

I think the P2 solves my issues directly. I could plug it in and have the volume on the P2 almost maxed. Then, even when the volume is at 1/3 like I normally have it for speaker listening, the headphones will sound just as loud.

 

[voxdei_aer]

Wow dude...I don't mean to sound rude or an ass, but why did you even ask this question if your so adamant on getting the P2? These guys just put in a bunch of work to convience you the D2 is the better option with the superior DAC and you still don't believe it. That just baffles me.

How much bass do you need? My friend has the same set-up and they shook the room. Maybe you should invest in a new woofer if the Logitech's are weak in bass for your taste. Have you tried bass boost through software (equalizers etc.)? How big is the woofer...8 inch?

Again, I don't mean to be an ass, but...man, your stubborn!