[mojorisin676]

I'm not exactly sure what a DAC is, and I'm not sure if the sound quality of CD's would be better with one played through a tube headphone amp. I'm new to these and the upsampling, oversampling, non oversampling, etc just confuses me completely. The setup I have now is just a sony dvd player analog out to my aria sonice headphone amp to my SR-225s. What exactly does a CD player with a built in 192 kHz 24 Bit Digital to Analog Converter (what I have) differ from other seperate DACS like Zhalou and Lite? I know that you have to use a coax or optical out to the DAC from CD/DVD player and then to amp, headphones, etc. Why does it make a difference if there is a just a seperate DAC instead of the ones built into generic CD/DVD players? Does it have to do with the signal running through a digital cable like the coax or toslink? I'm really asking this because over the Christmas holidays I am planning on getting a Ear+ Mapletree Audio HD150 Headphone amp and I know I have to upgrade my source. I was thinking of the Cambridge Audio 640cv2 CD player that has 2 DACs already built in and the question really is, is a seperate DAC really necessary for optimum sonic quality. I know this is a completely noob question but I'd just like an explanation why you can't just have a CD player ->headphone amp -> headphones combination.

 

[Azure]

A DAC is a digital to analog converter. You have to use a digital cable (coaxial, optical, etc.) because you want to take the digital data from your transport (The name given to your original source when using a DAC) and transfer it to your DAC in digital form. Then you run an analog cable from your DAC to your amplifier because the DAC has converted the digital signal into an analog signal that is ready to be amplified by your amplifier.

A lot of people buy external DACs because the DACs inside CDPs aren't as high quality as they can be. It's KIND OF like the whole built-in amplifier thing vs. dedicated amplifier. A lot of people go the external DAC route because it can yield better results for less $ and is much more versatile (Essentially, your expensive, high-quality, awesome sounding "source," that is, your DAC, can be connected to different rigs; so, you can get awesome sound with your CDP, somebody else's CDP, your computer's soundcard, the portable iRiver H120, etc. Keep in mind there's the factor of jitter, but that's for another time). However, there's still a degradation of sound by having to send it out through a digital cable to an external DAC (What this means is that the absolute best sound quality possible would best be in a CDP with an integrated DAC).

A lot of people seem to find that you can get more bang for your buck if you go the transport+DAC route; that's the reason why I'm going that route. However, that's not to say that you can't get equal sound quality with a CDP's built-in-DAC.

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[mojorisin676]

Thank you for clarifying that up a bit. So are there CD players that have built-in DACs that are as good as the ones people speak of on the forums? the Azur 640cv2 has 2 x Wolfson WM8740 24-bit/192kHz DACs and I was just wondering if I should get a DAC on top of that, or would the signal transfer just be pointless and degrade the sound quality like you said going the optional external route could be?

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojorisin676 Thank you for clarifying that up a bit. So are there CD players that have built-in DACs that are as good as the ones people speak of on the forums? the Azur 640cv2 has 2 x Wolfson WM8740 24-bit/192kHz DACs and I was just wondering if I should get a DAC on top of that, or would the signal transfer just be pointless and degrade the sound quality like you said going the optional external route could be?

Yup, there are CD players that have DACs that are as good as the external DACs that people talk about/use (and there are also CD players that have DACs that are better than external DACs). However, don't be surprised if you find yourself having to spend, say, much more than $500 on a CDP to get a DAC that is of roughly the same quality as a $500 DAC. That $500 that you spend on the CDP goes into MANY different things (Not just the CDP's DAC...). Don't get me wrong, that $500 CDP will still sound great, but it doesn't necessarily mean that is will sound the same as a $500 DAC. Also keep in mind that a good analog output stage also plays an important role in good sounding DAC (A lot of people seem to really favor installing the Zapfilter MK2 output stage into their DACs and CDPs; I plan to do the same with my Zhaolu).

If you're investing in a pricey CDP, you usually don't use an external DAC along with it. Most people that use the transport+DAC combo get a decent, affordable transport and spend the rest of their source money on the external DAC. I personally think that getting the 640C V2 and then getting an external DAC on top of that would be too costly and not worth it. The advantage of using a high quality transport with a DAC is that you'll have less jitter to deal with. There have been threads about this before and a lot of people seem to agree that something like $500 on a transport and $500 (or less) on a DAC isn't the best way to spend your money (I think a lot of people would just get a ~$100-$200 transport and spend the rest on a higher-end DAC, like the DA10 or DAC1 or something).

What DACs did you have in mind? What's your budget?

 

[mojorisin676]

Well if I get the 640c v2 I don't know if I would get a DAC, but if I cant gather that much together, I'm looking to spend <$300 on a DAC. What do you think could be a good DAC in this pricerange?

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojorisin676 Well if I get the 640c v2 I don't know if I would get a DAC, but if I cant gather that much together, I'm looking to spend <$300 on a DAC. What do you think could be a good DAC in this pricerange?

So, your budget for a new source is $900? I think you'd be better off going towards one of the extremes rather than staying in the middle-ish and getting the 640C and a $200-$300 DAC (I haven't heard the 640C, but I've heard very good things about it; I wouldn't be surprised if you aren't able to tell much of a difference, if at all, between the 640C's DAC and a <$300 DAC. I also wouldn't be surprised if the 640C sounded better alone than coupling it with a <$300 DAC).

Honestly, if I was in your situation, I'd look into the following options:
-640C V2 alone (Listen to the player in your system first, then decide if you want to upgrade; or spend the money on something else)
-Eastsound CD-E5 alone (same as above)
-Cheap transport + Lavry DA10/Benchmark DAC1/Ack dAck! 2.0 (The CE595 can be had for $60, so that should help with costs; you'd have to get the DA10/DAC1 used, but it shouldn't be an issue)
-Medium-ranged transport + Zhaolu w/ Zapfilter output stage (Unfortunately only a few select members on this forum have heard the D2C w/ the Zapfilter installed. However, their impressions have been quite positive, saying that the Zapfiltered Zhaolu bests the E5, Lavry, and other respectable high end DACs. You'd have to either install the output stage yourself or have someone do it for you. There seems to be a dearth of Zapfilters right now, but supply should pick up in a couple weeks)
-Medium-ranged transport + PreSonus Central Station (Some very good things have been said about this all-in-one device; Ferbose, music_man, and a few others have said great things about it)

 

[mojorisin676]

Thanks for all the help Azure, you've helped me decide to limit my options at least. The Eastsound looks very nice but I'm not sure I can afford it, the Azur 640c v2 is pretty much where I'm set. I'll just have to experiment with a DAC sometime soon and see if I really can tell a difference. If not, well, there's always the sale forums..

 

[Garbz]

Actually the arguement is backwards. There are plenty of examples where CDplayer's internal DACs are sub-par, but the fact is that a standalone CDplayer has many technical advantages over an external DAC that mean in the highest of end units, standard external DACs can not out-perform CDplayers.
(god that is badly worded).

Anyway external DACs still make a lot of sense. For many of us who user our computer as a source an external DAC is a must for top quality sound. Others already have a cdplayer in which case DACs present a cost-effective upgrade.

But for those who want to build a system from ground up for playing CDs or DVD-A or SACD (the latter 2 of which don't work with a DAC anyway), so far I have always found an external CDplayer to be more cost effective than a cheaper cdplayer + DAC.

Note that this arguement applies only to DACs which connect via standard S/PDIF, and not something special such as TEAC's esoteric models.

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garbz Actually the arguement is backwards. There are plenty of examples where CDplayer's internal DACs are sub-par, but the fact is that a standalone CDplayer has many technical advantages over an external DAC that mean in the highest of end units, standard external DACs can not out-perform CDplayers. (god that is badly worded).

Yeah, if your talking about the higher end of the spectrum that you'd be better off spending your money on a high-end CDP and not the transport/DAC route. I believe for the OP's purposes/price range that transport/DAC route would be his best bet (And get a ~$200 transport with a ~$800 DAC or something), but it'd be best to get the 640C V2 in his system first and then decide if he needs an external DAC or not (I'd guess that he'll be satisfied, but when it comes time to upgrade he might get something like a DA10).

 

[mojorisin676]

I don't really think the Azur 640c is considered "high-end" but it will be good for me now. Eventually I'll upgrade to a CDP around the $1000 mark and I think at that point I won't really need to think about a DAC.

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojorisin676 I don't really think the Azur 640c is considered "high-end" but it will be good for me now. Eventually I'll upgrade to a CDP around the $1000 mark and I think at that point I won't really need to think about a DAC.

Yeah, considering the spectrum of sources, the 640C is nowhere near the high end. I wasn't referring to your case with that comment. Personally, I think in your situation you'd be better off with the transport/DAC path; when I mentioned high-end I was talking about G08 systems and what not (CDPs that cost thousands upon thousands of dollars).

 

[Etrius]

For me getting the external DAC (in my case the MDHT Paradisea) was about retaining the convenience factor of my Maranz 5-Disc player while reaping the sonic benefits of a better quality DAC.

Typically multi-disc players of audiophile quality are rather expensive (and few in number). I listen to music a fair distance from the actual equipment, and I have musical ADD, preferring to switch discs on a whim.

 

[Roblin]

I am in a very similar boat. Trying to decide between a DAC/ cheaper transport and a dedicated CDP. My budget is 1000US tops. thinking of the rega apollo, NAD c542, or the 640c v2 - unless a dac combo would be better.. any thoughts?

 

[Garbz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure Yeah, if your talking about the higher end of the spectrum that you'd be better off spending your money on a high-end CDP and not the transport/DAC route. I believe for the OP's purposes/price range that transport/DAC route would be his best bet (And get a ~$200 transport with a ~$800 DAC or something), but it'd be best to get the 640C V2 in his system first and then decide if he needs an external DAC or not (I'd guess that he'll be satisfied, but when it comes time to upgrade he might get something like a DA10).

That's the first sane thing I've heard in this forum.