[bedlam inside]

Patrick,

I have read your posts here and your article. It seems a load of old bollocks to me.

Each time I had to get my gear serviced (depressingly frequent with the Audio Innovation Amp's in the early oughties) the Shop let me borrow stuff. In part I think they wanted me to buy the new stuff. Yet non of this kit (all of it of course with rave reviews) sounded to me like my system does normally, it missed the magic. I was always very happy when things where back together.

I was perfectly willing to change the kit. In fact, the unreliability of the Audio Innovation Monoblocks (before I got them completely re-build and changed to different types of output tubes) made me very ill disposed towards them. Yet I kept them anyway as they sounded better than all the other kit. No auto suggestion there.

Equally, I never heard BIG changes from cables, but I did hear some.
 
In your case, who knows. Maybe your hearing has changed? Did you have a checkup?

That is as good an explanation as "I saw castles up the air, because HiFi News told me so"... 

I had my ears cleaned a few years back and it certainly showed me that before my hearing wasn't all that brilliant any more...

Cheers Rich

 

[Lenni]

Quote:

 
 

Spoiler: Originally%20Posted%20by%20p%20a%20t%20r%20i%20c%20k

 
You don't seem to be very impressed by my article
 
Suggestion and Autosuggestion in the Assessment of Audio Products
 
which is okay by me.
 
However I will take you up on the point you raise that I am apparently posting in this forum about something I have never tried.
 
I put together my first Hi Fi in the late 70s and I have been listening to music through Hi Fis since that time.
 
In the mid 80s the nature of the Hi Fi world started to change and although at the time I felt this was a good thing, in retrospect it was mostly a change for the worse.
 
One of the changes was that magazine reviewers in the UK, and I think in the US as well, started to abandon any idea of eliminating the influence of suggestion or autosuggestion in reviews. It used to be that UK audio magazines would set up ways of reviewing Hi Fi such that they were comparing different makes of amplifier (for example) side by side, but hiding the identity of the makes. There were many different approaches to this.
 
All that kind of reviewing went and was replaced by the kind of "reviewing" we have today.
 
In the late 80s I did get very convinced by the idea that things that were once considered irrelevant to the sound were now relevant, and one of those things was cables. So I dutifully did as many Hi Fi enthusiasts did at that time and spent quite a lot money on cables for my Hi Fi.
 
Each cable I purchased seemed to bring the improvements that the manufacturer had suggested, or which had been discussed in one of the "reviews". So I felt this money was very well spent.
 
Then many life events came that meant that I could not spend so much time reading about Hi Fi. I kept the Hi Fi I had at the time and loved playing music with it. However it was not until the mid 90s when I came around again to a renewed interest in the Hi Fi itself.
 
In the mid 90s I tried changing these cables for much cheaper alternatives I had (free cables that had been supplied with components) and I could not notice any difference in the sound. I even had an "audiophile" mains cable for my power amplifier and I tried changing that for a regular "kettle lead". I could detect no difference, and yet when I had bought that cable during my period of Hi Fi indulgence I was so sure as to the benefits it had brought the system.
 
What had happened to me in the late 90s was that I was now listening to my Hi Fi after spending several years without reading any magazines, or indeed anything about Hi Fi. The endless suggestions repeated by the Hi Fi industry and discussion around it had been removed from me for that period.
 
So you see I have written my article from experience of these issues.
 
I recommend that people do read my article. You can make up your own mind about it. However an understanding that many of these so-called improvements in audio are simply the result of suggestion and autosuggestion might well save you a great deal of money.
 

 

 
I have not read the article. sorry. I'm not interested in reading these kind of science theories . I read it all before... no offence.
 
is possible that auto-suggestion played a part in what you experienced (I can't say for sure), but I don't believe this is the answer to every instances where someone hear a difference. 
 
buying cables is not an exact science. I wish it was. it'd save me the task of having to roll the dice every time I want to buy a product. for example, the Nordost's Heimdall seems to be well received, both in magazines and by users, but I hated it. I couldn't wait to get rid of it. then I got the Diamond Piccolo and.. bingo! I finally found what I was looking for... my cable search is over.
 
let me make this clear: what drives me to buy cables is not because of what I read on magazines, or because is what audiophiles are supposed to do - not in the slightest - at all. it's a desire of seeking better sound; it's hearing that something in the chain is not quite right; it's becoming frustrated. I can honestly say, if I didn't use the cables and source I used at the moment, I'd have already sold the speakers, or I would not listen and enjoy them as much has as I do now. no doubt about it.

 

[JonnyRocket]

Having never used custom cables, I can safely say they have nothing to offer.

 

[bracko]

Quote:

Having never used custom cables, I can safely say they have nothing to offer.

Just wonder, how can you "safely" say these cables have nothing to offer if you never used them?

 

[bracko]

My personal opinion is that paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars for cables is a complete nonsense. Pouring your money down the drain.

 

[bedlam inside]

Hi,
 
Quote:

Having never used custom cables, I can safely say they have nothing to offer.

Interesting view.

It would seem to me to be rather like a Virgin conveying that she can safely tell us that a bit of the old Posh'n'Becks has nothing to offer...

She may be right for all we know (though I personally rather enjoy a bit of Posh'n'Becks), yet what does she base her assessment on?

Hearsay?

Justin Bieber?

On the way in I asked Gazza from accounts, who let me audition some of his headphones last year.

He says he does have a suitable spare cable and he will lend it to me to try. So I shall see what it does and report back. He mumbled something about handmade and litzwire.

He seems rather convinced that the upgraded cables are worth having. Told me about the silver cables he recently put on his hifiman headphones. Them cables cost more than me Headphones!

Cheers Rich

 

[streetdragon]

not sure about upgrade, but i have definitely downgraded my cable before. result was slight loss in amplitude and clarity. but the differences were so very slight that it took me a week to realize it. (it was actually a cable splitter i used as a strain relief)

also i tried a soldering wire to tie/connect a 6.3 jack to a 3.5 jack, one wire for each terminal. and the result was.... quite a significant reduction in sound quality, soundstage gone and clarity gone. but again this is something completely different like lead with flux.

 

[Audio-Omega]

Better build quality makes a difference too.  

 

[drez]

I have heard differences between headphone cables, ones that often went against what I was expecting. Not big differences for sure, and hardly worth spending a lot of money on for the sound quality alone. I have heard cables that sound very different but I consider them to be coloured, telling between transparent cables with sensible construction should be very difficult, and in my experience is.

What I do consider worthwhile is changing cables to reduce resistance and other losses to make headphones more efficient, to upgrade for aesthetic reasons, and to upgrade to more durable and comfortable cables. Diy cabling can also be fun.

 

[JonnyRocket]

Just wonder, how can you "safely" say these cables have nothing to offer if you never used them?

I was being facetious, with my tongue planted firmly in my cheek

 

[bracko]

Quote:

I was being facetious, with my tongue planted firmly in my cheek

I see

Well.. I have used different custom cables and I can safely say that they actually have very little to offer.

 

[JonnyRocket]

I see Well.. I have used different custom cables and I can safely say that they actually have very little to offer.

I was thinking the same thing. I think you'd have to have a pretty sophisticated rig to notice a difference.

 

[bracko]

Quote:

I was thinking the same thing. I think you'd have to have a pretty sophisticated rig to notice a difference.

Probably. And in that case the price paid for the cables would be proportionally reasonable compared to the rig. Otherwise it is just nuts to invest $500 in cables for $400 headphones or similar. In most cases I beleive it is all about showing off.

 

[wink]

I think that if you can't hear the difference that different cables can make it could be because of:-
 
1. There is not that much difference between those two cables. This does not mean there is not a greater difference between two other cables.
2. You do not have enough acuity to hear the difference between the cables, This does not mean that others cannot do so.
3. Any reason/reasons besides the above two.

 

[bedlam inside]

Mates,
 

Originally Posted by bedlam inside /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
On the way in I asked Gazza from accounts, who let me audition some of his headphones last year.

He says he does have a suitable spare cable and he will lend it to me to try. So I shall see what it does and report back.
 

I wanted to post this Friday evening, but I have this new bird going and she wanted to a night out and we ended up at hers. So I have been a wee bit shagged and could not muster the will to write this up till today... 

On friday after lunch Gazza came over to my office with the cable he suggested fit my headphones and I should try.
 
I also realised that I had another cable I had overlooked which would fit, a dubiously apple-ish looking cable iFi bunged in with their iCAN.
 
So we had us a three dog race. 
 

 
From left to right you see first the cable Gazza brought over. He got it years ago from some guy in France. He said it was "bespoke with braided silk covered litz wire", whatever. It feels rather homemade and not in a good way. Not sure I’d pay money for it on build quality. It seems weird next to real cables, so we shall call it the “crazy frog cable” from here on.

In the middle the flat white cable came with my iCan headamp. I had forgotten about it, but I thought if we do this cable lark, we might as well give this a go. Build seems commercial but fine, maybe a touch up from the original cable. In honour of the a KLF album I’ll call it the “white cable”.
 
Finally we have the original stock cable that came with my headphones. It does seem well made and durable, after over six years it still works.

I started out with what playing, Moby in MP3 (320K) from the Observer Promo CD.
 

 
It is not the greatest source for critical listening, but plugging these cables around it was clear to me that there were differences. Nothing earth shattering, but differences still. I moved on to some other music, while Gazza, grinning like a Cheshire was going back to his job. Over the afternoon I played a wide range of music, occasionally swapping cables and my impressions in just how the cables differ became clearer.
 

 
First the stock cable, I have been listening to it for six years and it has worked. Yet after comparing the other cables I find that it adds a certain roughness to the sound. Not sure how best to express it well. Also, everything sounds a bit flat, as if on a TV colour and contrast was turned down a little, not much, but just perceptible. I have lived with the cable for years and on my Smartphone most of the differences disappear, only with my new Amp are these differences noticeable.
 

 
Second, the white cable, it surprised me. I was expecting it to be worse than the stick cable, yet switching it in revealed the roughness in sound of the stock cable! It also sounded a little more alive and present, with a touch more space. Given it was free this is a very pleasant discovery, it is an appreciable upgrade over the stock cable.
 

 
Third, the crazy frog cable, this was a lot different. On Moby’s “Anthem” it way opened up the space. It was as smooth, or more so than the white cable. Even better, this cable gave the system some of the bounce and rhythm I like so much on my system at home. I played a lot of female Jazz from "Pink Champagne" - next to the crazy frog cable female vocals with the stock cable sounded as if the girls had been on the lash last night!
 

 
Conclusion, the crazy frog cable for now is the bees knees. I really like what it does. I’ll have to haggle with Gazza if I want to keep it.
 
But I wonder if the 6.3mm to 3.5mm adapter I use on the amplifier to the headphone has any bad impact on the sound? Maybe I should get a 6.3mm to 3.5mm cable? Let's see how much Gazza wants, might get it anyway for now.

Cheerio Rich