[adhoc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emon Well, yeah...if the connectors are insulated and only allow for crimping, you'll have to start cutting to solder it. And you'll need a high powered iron or gun to pull it off if the contacts are really big. I am a little confused, though...since you just said you crimped them, and in your first post you said you could screw them. A good crimp is a great connection and won't fall apart for many, many years. I was under the impression it was a screw connector, which in my experience, suck. If you open up the fusebox in any older home that hasn't had its electrical serviced in some time, I garuntee the screw terminals will be loose. Unless they're a bolt design with lock washers or nuts on the other side...but who does that?

i should've clarified - i screwed them in extremely tightly, then used superglue to secure the screws. misuse of the term 'crimp' on my part there. oops!

 

[Emon]

Ah. Well that sounds like it's not going anywhere.

 

[Garbz]

at least it worked. What's the arguement here about? It's a power cable, probably moved once every 2 months. If it shorts it's more likely to throw a safty fuse then catch fire. But then we won't know that untill we see the pictures

Anyway now that you have your manly cable, build a filter.

Oh and make with the pics already.

 

[chillysalsa]

You should NOT use solder ALONE. There is a good reason for this. The screws must be there so that you have a good mechanical bond. Feel free to solder over top of the screws (make sure everything is correct because you'll have a hard time unscrewing them after!).

Solder alone does not support a lot of loading over time. In material terms, it is prone to creep at room temperature. Creep is the process of something slowly deforming or yielding over time even when the stressses are pretty low. IE: even if you are not moving it around, having a bend in it or whatever, will impose a small amount of stress even from the weight of the cable itself. Then maybe months or years down the line the connection could fail.

Screws should give a good mechanical bond that can support greater stresses, and the electrical contact can be improved by some solder over top of it if you are so inclined.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

You imply that's a bad thing. Power is not signal,

huh ???????

Power IS signal !

All an amp does is convert the power,be it battery or AC, into a usable format to drive whatever it is you are trying to drive.

Think about how an AC supply works :

AC line to a step down SS gear) or step up (tube gear) transformer.This raw AC is then rectified into a DC voltage which is then filtered to get rid of things having a negative impact on the sound (ripple,hum,rf harmonics,etc.)
This 'raw" DC is then regulated (or not) to have a stable voltage,one that does not vary over time from the target voltage.
Then at the device to be powered you add another filter stage to get rid of the last vestiges of supply garbage.

Power is not signal ? Power is the main make or break part of any audio design and has equal importance to the actual circuit topology.

Garbage in = garbage out and if you begin with garbage no amount of circuit tricks will make it good.


Folks need to look at the AC outlet in the home like they now do the source feeding their amps.

 

[mono]

No, power is NOT signal. This is exactly why we have the term "signal" to differentiate.

Further, the amp only requires clean enough power,nothing more.

The difference is that signal requires preservation (or coloration for some who aspire to it) of frequencies, while with the power, you want to eliminate them. Opposite intentions, therefore if we want to be correct, power is not signal, it is the opposite of signal.

Power is hardly ever make-or-break.
The vast majority of power circuits we use are incredible overkill, a 35 cent regulator and a $1 capacitor would suffice for all but the most demanding tube amps.

Using decades old very simple designs we can achieve acceptible power without a second thought. You don't need to care at all about power cords, plugs, or ANYTHING relating to power so long as the amperage gets to it's destination and doesn't pick up extra noise. At that point, it is the job of the power supply to filter and condition it as needed. It is obvious enough, but while power can effect signal, power is NOT signal.

My shoes can effect my feet, but my shoes are not my feet.

 

[Garbz]

and on that analogy if your shoes have holes your feet get sore

Though I agree that i can't see a power cable making any difference through all the filtering and possibly regulation, rick's idea of taking care of power like the source also makes sense.

And this is why I don't see why people spend hundreds of dollars on power cables without putting in at least $50 power filter!!!!!!

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

No, power is NOT signal. This is exactly why we have the term "signal" to differentiate.

All the signal does is to modulate the power and no more.It tells the power what to do moment to moment.

Quote:

Further, the amp only requires clean enough power,nothing more.

Again wrong.A switching supply can provide all the clean power you would ever need on paper but is audibly inferior as a means to power audio electronic devices.Dandy for a cell phone or laptop,crap for high end audio.

Quote:

The difference is that signal requires preservation (or coloration for some who aspire to it) of frequencies, while with the power, you want to eliminate them. Opposite intentions, therefore if we want to be correct, power is not signal, it is the opposite of signal.

The power supply is audible and just changing it can dramatically change the nature of the sound of an amp.I think if more folks looked at the power supply as they do a power amplifier,which are both very clse in actuality,they would have a far better sounding end product.

Quote:

Power is hardly ever make-or-break. The vast majority of power circuits we use are incredible overkill, a 35 cent regulator and a $1 capacitor would suffice for all but the most demanding tube amps.

Bull !

That is text book talking and not real world through listening.I have gone through every method I know of to power a simple single stage single ended mosfetr in Class-A and every one had an audible signbature.Not a couple,not one but each.
You can think what you will and argue a point until you run out of words but I know from my own listening tests and experience that power supplies can make or break a design and the more simplidtic and basic that design the more weight is placed on the method of powering it.Theory be damned audio is another beast entirely.

Quote:

Using decades old very simple designs we can achieve acceptible power without a second thought. You don't need to care at all about power cords, plugs, or ANYTHING relating to power so long as the amperage gets to it's destination and doesn't pick up extra noise. At that point, it is the job of the power supply to filter and condition it as needed. It is obvious enough, but while power can effect signal, power is NOT signal.

Take that same decades old design and update it and there is no contest as to which is better.

Quote:

My shoes can effect my feet, but my shoes are not my feet

well i am sitting here bare foot and still contend power is an integral part of the audio signal and putting shoes on will not change what is.

 

[mono]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 All the signal does is to modulate the power and no more.It tells the power what to do moment to moment.

The power is still not the signal in that description. It is transformed, but that has no relation to (anything in particular providing the power was clean enough- certainly not in this thread's context of whether a soldered-on wire matters).

We could as easily claim "power is light", as it applies to a light bulb, but has anyone claimed we need be particular about post-filtration for a light bulb's power?


Quote:

Again wrong.A switching supply can provide all the clean power you would ever need on paper

No, it can't. On paper and through measurements, we can see there is in fact switching noise.


Quote:

but is audibly inferior as a means to power audio electronic devices.Dandy for a cell phone or laptop,crap for high end audio.

... which comes back to the central idea that it has to be clean (enough), which is a simple thing to do. You're arguing in the opposite direction here, because again, with signal the idea is to minimize the changes in the path, but with power it's quite the opposite, to completely condition the power by having (as complete as realistically possible or necessary) it change from it's unfiltered, (typically) unrectified, and different voltage state. These are opposing issues, that see power as only detrimental from a lack of doing to it what you dont' want done to the audio. That makes it opposite of single, not signal. "Anti-signal" might be more appropriate.



Quote:

The power supply is audible

It shouldn't be if it meets the requirements of the circuit. The power supply should not have any audible qualities. It is only audible if it hasn't been sufficiently conditioned. This is a post-input-cord event for the most part.

Quote:

and just changing it can dramatically change the nature of the sound of an amp.

ONLY in one situation- when the power didn't have sufficient qualities for the powered device, as-in sufficient amperage, impedance, limited noise (per appliction). That does NOT make it signal. That makes an inappropriate power supply degrade the signal but this in itself is not something we need to consider, because we have criteria for judging power and localized power for the (powered device) has to have localization if the input varies, else the input (Power) is an integrated part of the powered device.

Quote:

I think if more folks looked at the power supply as they do a power amplifier,which are both very clse in actuality,they would have a far better sounding end product.

I think if more folks realized they needed only clean power and localized device-rail adequacy, they'd not have to wonder about sonic differences of power cords.


Quote:

Bull ! That is text book talking and not real world through listening.I have gone through every method I know of to power a simple single stage single ended mosfetr in Class-A and every one had an audible signbature.Not a couple,not one but each. You can think what you will and argue a point until you run out of words but I know from my own listening tests and experience that power supplies can make or break a design and the more simplidtic and basic that design the more weight is placed on the method of powering it.Theory be damned audio is another beast entirely.

There are two schools of thought on this-

1) Some like coloration. They don't want accurate signal, they want the signal transformed into something their own (unque tastes and ears) prefer. For these people, there is indeed an art in figuring out how to reproduce the distortion they like. This is not to suggest it's wrong to have this preference- sound could be considered a distortion in itself. However, going down this road we cannot simply claim "this is bad or that is good", rather than it being assessed by the individual, or to some extent, if the amp (or cans, source, etc) tended to be a bit colored already, then it may offset this other deficiency.

2) Those who want accurate sound, which requires power clean enough that one can't audibly discern the difference. Further, it must be significantly beyond the threshold of audible difference, as several barely-inaudible differences can add up to an audible difference. "Clean" means "clean", nothing more. If two power supplies have different frequency or magnitude of ripple, that these two are being contrasted as having sonic difference, then the issue is not that they sound different, but that one is clearly inappropriate for use if the user falls into group #2 rather than group #1.


Quote:

Take that same decades old design and update it and there is no contest as to which is better. well i am sitting here bare foot and still contend power is an integral part of the audio signal and putting shoes on will not change what is.

I'll split the difference and agree that inadequate power supply can (and easily may) alter the signal. To me that simply means the power supply design wasn't appropriate for powering the gear. Since I fall into group #2, I do not consider this poor power to be a sonic difference, I consider it to be distortion from an inadequate power supply. To that end and in the context of this thread, plugs and cables to not matter so long as the incoming AC has sufficient amperage and the cable isn't being depended upon to capacitively clean the AC nor pickup stray noise- yet any of this should be dealt with in the supply circuit itself.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

It shouldn't be if it meets the requirements of the circuit. The power supply should not have any audible qualities. It is only audible if it hasn't been sufficiently conditioned. This is a post-input-cord event for the most part.

You win man.Enjoy your builds

 

[Emon]

I think you've both brought up valid points...rick seems like the kind of guy that, when he entered audio, didn't know the first thing about electronics. Mono on the other hand, seems to have quite a bit of real education in the subject before entering audio. Just pointing out that audio people tend to be more "listen test" and subject to placebo, and textbook people tend to be more "the numbers are right" and subject to not realizing that you can't accurately describe real world situations with a LOT of numbers, which most people don't get into until way into their college career.

Now, I'm not saying either of these guys is suffering from placebo or numbers-are-everything, but it's just something I see often and I thought I should point out...you should never go buy just what you hear, or just what you read on paper.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

rick seems like the kind of guy that, when he entered audio, didn't know the first thing about electronics.

and many say still has no clue

I was once a spec whore and fell for all the ad copy on why I should gun my gear and buy all new equipment because here is the documented proof that my ears are lying.

Think on that for a moment...................

I had a system that sounded pretty good,not the unltimate but musically enjoyable and because it measured below the state of the art I tossed it and ended up with what ?

0.001% THD and purely crap sound ! This fantastic "State Of The Audio Art" Ultra Low THD device was an TL072 opamp based circuit which replaced a 12AX7 circuit !
So it must just be I was listening wrong right ?No way 1% distortion can compete with 0.001% so if the measuring equipment is right then i must train myself to get with the frikin' program and learn how to listen to audio equipment and not music !

The theory also said I should also get rid of all tone controls and all filters,anything that will throw the theoretically perfect phase of my system out of whack then toss my open reel deck and turntable and ugrade to perfect sound forever-the CD.

The problem was I could not get with the program.I missed my tone controls.I missed my filters.I missed my "non perfect" vinyl and analog tape but to conform to what was considered "audio cool" .(I will hate Mark Leveinson 'til I die for convincing me and the rest of the world that tone controls are out,straight wire with gain is in

)

I suffered through upgrade after upgrade all from ad copy,white papers telling me why what I was hearing should sound great even though my ears said it sucked and each step up in both class and $$$$$ was a step back in sonics.All this science trying to convince me that what I was hearing was good and telling me i was lsitening wrong.

Took many years for me to wake up and go with what I liked and screw conventional wisdom.Full circle from triodes and back again and if SS all SE Class-A.
Tone controls and filters,archaic horn drivers for speakers,Hafler Dynaquad for surround (

),rebuilt my vinyl and tape systems,my FM Tuner is MONO because ,well ,mono flat out sounds better than the noisy MPX signal

i have transformer coupling all over the place one i realised the SS balancing stages were never superior as claimed but just a way to save on expensive iron,the list goes on and on.

So yes.i come at this from a point of what actually sounds good and not what should sounfd good becasue the data sheets and specs say so.

Audio electronics is as much art as science and are partners.All Science and you will have no more than pretty graphs to show but not a sound to be showing off.All Art with no science and you will never realise what you are trying to accomplish.You may know what you want in the sonics but no clue what to add or delete to get there.

Design on specs alone and fail to trust your own ears and you get what you deserve-audio hell -a place i resided in for far too long due to trusting others and not myself.........

and oh yeah-read this on AC power.Beleive it,don't beleive it,matters not a bit to me in the end

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Iss...onceptions.htm

 

[elliot]

I'm convinced by what you say, mono.

Somewhat off topic, I would like to ask you how fancy 1-inch thick cords would make any difference whatsoever if all of the cords leading up to that point are lame, boring cheap cords and probably lazy connections?

I think the fancy homemade and expensive power cords look pretty great, but I doubt they actually do anything beyond a normal power cord. What do you think?

 

[mono]

Fancy cords look good, look expensive (though easily they may indeed BE expensive), and are more durable in some cases. If the original cord has some problem, that's justification to change it. Otherwise there should be no difference in whether the good cord came after a "lame, boring cheap cords and probably lazy connections", except that lazy connections could be intermittent, and if the connection resistance is too high then it may be a fire hazzard.

Replacing just the cord doesn't even make much sense unless one follows this same mindset and replaces the wall outlets, the house wiring, the external wirings, Electric Co. transformer, etc, etc. That one meter from wall to power supply is probably the least important wire in the entire grand scheme of things, unless of course it's worn, since it is exposed to potential abuse or general aging like some old plastic or rubber cords were.

 

[elliot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mono Replacing just the cord doesn't even make much sense unless one follows this same mindset and replaces the wall outlets, the house wiring, the external wirings, Electric Co. transformer, etc, etc.

I'm totally convinced. Thanks.