Distortion - or what I perceive to be - on some louder lower frequencies.
Apr 6, 2019 at 11:42 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 10

viivo

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I don't think it's an intended effect as I've heard it across multiple mediums of all qualities. It seems to only affect lower mid-range frequencies, most noticeable on loud passages like explosions, some drum beats, etc. It sounds to my untrained ear like the amp doesn't have enough headroom, but I don't think that's the case. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

PC > USB JDS Labs OL DAC
Schiit Magni 2 Uber
Sony MDR-z7
Win10 x64, sound settings: 2 channel, full range, enhancements disabled, 24/48.
 
Apr 7, 2019 at 1:42 AM Post #2 of 10
I don't think it's an intended effect as I've heard it across multiple mediums of all qualities. It seems to only affect lower mid-range frequencies, most noticeable on loud passages like explosions, some drum beats, etc. It sounds to my untrained ear like the amp doesn't have enough headroom, but I don't think that's the case. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

What exactly does it sound like? Like the bass sound is followed by a sound like rubber smacking cardboard? If you have any software EQ running (and double check your computer, especially if you didn't build it yourself, as some prebuilt manufacturers put in some other kind of DSP that needs its own app to see it as it doesn't appear on Windows audio control panel) that could cause over excursion. If it doesn't have that, it's weird that an amp that spits out more than 1watt would have overexcursion save for a low sensitivity load that also has its impedance swinging too far from the nominal impedance rating.
 
Apr 7, 2019 at 2:11 AM Post #3 of 10
The best way I can characterize it is it sounds like something in the chain is getting a weak signal and sending it to the amp. I ran into this a lot when I was into home theater: pro-audio amps combined with consumer-level AVRs, most of which couldn't output a strong enough signal.
 
Apr 7, 2019 at 6:33 AM Post #4 of 10
I'd try trouble shooting your problem, find some music that exposes the sound problem to the maximum then try swapping components if you can such as trying different cans, different PC e.g. a laptop, try to determine if it's on left and right e.g. try disconnecting your left /. right RCA connections or swapping them, try dare I say the audio from your mother board. Have you installed any dodgy software recently ? i.e. did your gear ever sound ok ? If it;s an intermittent problem it could be that your DAC isn't getting fed a constant stream of data - if your system is running too much junk in the background that can have an effect, have you tried looking at your DPC latency ?
 
Apr 7, 2019 at 8:46 AM Post #5 of 10
I've always run very lean Windows installations. I've disabled most things I don't use via gpedit (Store, Cortana, etc.) and don't have any extraneous background tasks running. I've used LatencyMon many times in the past and it didn't then or now show any problems. Thanks for the onboard suggestion as I often forget it exists, but it can be a nice troubleshooting tool.
 
Apr 7, 2019 at 9:31 AM Post #6 of 10
Another thought is that those cans have some seriously big drivers (70mm ?) assuming I'm looking that correct info and response down to 4Hz, any chance the diaphragm is touching your ears on the lower frequencies ? does the distortion change with volume level ?
 
Apr 7, 2019 at 10:04 AM Post #7 of 10
The best way I can characterize it is it sounds like something in the chain is getting a weak signal and sending it to the amp. I ran into this a lot when I was into home theater: pro-audio amps combined with consumer-level AVRs, most of which couldn't output a strong enough signal.

That's not really specific enough to be helpful, mostly because a weaker line signal is not always absolutely detrimental. A couple of examples:

First there was one audio show before where one manufacturer basically trolled everybody as to the source unit feeding the amplifier that was driving gigantic speakers. They put a CDP on there, everybody was liking the sound, and then they told everybody that the line signal was actually coming from an iPod. Even on its proper line out (via the LOD 30-pin cable) it's 1.2V, well below Redbook standard for single ended output (not that balanced output is specified in the Redbook; AFAIK it isn't).

Second, I have a portable DAC-HPamp with a 1.2V line out here that I use as a DAC with my laptops (Win7 before and Win10 now) because somehow my back-up desktop DAC-HPamp's USB receiver+DAC chip has extremely buggy Windows drivers (but even weirder is that none of my Androids even need UAPP), and the problem isn't distortion but output level vs noise. Since the output level is low given the weaker signal it has to work with, I have to get to 1:00 on the dial, and the audible noise is there. Using its own USB DAC which sends out 2V, if I pause the music and move the dial, the noise becomes audible at 1:00 too, except I can't test it with music running because with the 2V signal I'm deaf by 12:00. The closest it gets to "distortion" is that the bass is weaker with the portable DAC-HPamp's line output into the desktop amp even at 1:00 on the dial, or even 2:00, but without actually measuring the output at the bass frequencies, it's far more likely that I'm just not hearing the bass right because the noise is there.

In either case the amp or preamp having a higher gain setting can make up for that weaker signal provided the amp actually still has enough power to handle how much louder you want it to go running off a weaker line signal.

Basically the line input to the amp and the amp's input sensitivity has to be low enough to really distort the bass if the problem is due to a weak line signal. Otherwise other reasons are more likely:

1. The amp is distorting for another reason, like low sensitivity or too low impedance of the transducers it is driving for its output voltage or current delivery

2. The DAC's line output signal isn't flat

3. A perfect storm of the above reasons, like the NuForce Icon HDP having overexcursion with the HD600 when using USB input. While normally weaker DAC-HPamps don't even have that problem, they're not boosting the low end either, something I noticed when the same HDP's preamp output was hooked up to a power amp driving towers vs a DACMagic they had on hand.

4. A too hot signal instead of a too weak one, like when I had the SuperPro 707 DAC that pulls power via USB, as well as utilize a more powerul power brick, according to some forum posts, so I tried a different power brick. My Little Dot Mk2 had ear pounding distorted bass where there's a bass-y humming following notes and it was literally painful to listen to. Some guy measured it and the output was more like 6.5V in that configuration - basically the same output level as Pioneer car audio receivers cranked up to the hilt by people using them to drive 1000w ++++ mono Class D amplifiers to either win a trophy or look cool when their windshield cracks or the roof makes coins jump. When I used the SuperPro 707 via SPDIF and a regular power brick, there were zero problems.
 
Apr 7, 2019 at 7:50 PM Post #8 of 10
IMO, I’d look at the cab drivers to see if they can handle the base.

The other thought is - what volume does it start to distort at? Remember that most amps under a couple grand will have distortion starting at 5 or 6 out of 10, and only get worse from there. Assuming your amp has the bandwith to reach that low in the first place, AND the juevos to drive without distortion at low freqs.
 
Apr 7, 2019 at 8:01 PM Post #9 of 10
IMO, I’d look at the cab drivers to see if they can handle the base.

The other thought is - what volume does it start to distort at? Remember that most amps under a couple grand will have distortion starting at 5 or 6 out of 10, and only get worse from there. Assuming your amp has the bandwith to reach that low in the first place, AND the juevos to drive without distortion at low freqs.
Well just have a bit of problem understanding your post as most amps are not measured in bandwidth so not sure what you are saying there.
 
Apr 7, 2019 at 10:25 PM Post #10 of 10
Assuming your amp has the bandwidth to reach that low in the first place...

Amps are typically rated for 20hz to 20,000hz on their own unless he's doing subsonic frequencies, which typically are only in (horror and disaster) movies and test tones. Basically it would have to be a really crappy amp that doesn't have a flat response even on a not complex signal like a sinesweep or playing a certain kind of material for the amp's response to be the problem. Neither seems to be the problem with his HT or his headphones though.

With the prevalence of mono subwoofers designed specifically for subwoofers he's more likely to encounter an amp that has a problem towards teh opposite direction of the frequency response range, ie, these older design Class D amps have extremely high distortion at higher frequencies but given the job these circuits are used for (plate amps for HT, mono amps in the same chassis design as the other car amps), there was no need to transition these to fullrange Class D.

...AND the juevos to drive without distortion at low freqs.

This has as much to do with the driver design than the amp, or looking at it another way, an amp mismatched to a very low sensitivity driver with high current demands as it also swings and dips or extremely rises when playing lower frequencies.

While his HT gear were not listed this kind of thing shouldn't be a big enough problem in his headphone rig for it to be easily noticeable short of hearing it side by side with, say, something that uses a totally overbuilt Burson headphone amp.
 

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