[Aimless1]

Little different twist on the paypal dispute threads that pop up here.

Almost a month a ago I shipped a small item to a buyer in Canada. Because of the low cost the item was shipped first class mail which means no insurance and no tracking number for Canada. So I have proof that the item shipped but nothing beyond that. Communication has been spotty, but eventually we connected. If it had been a large item I would not have done the deal based on the communication, but small item and a fellow head-fier in need...small risk.

This morning I received a PayPal dispute as the item has not been received. If I didn't receive the item I would not be happy either. I would have preferred he reply to my two follow up PMs to see if he received the item, but to each their own. So I have a dispute that has not escalated to a claim yet.

So my question is NOT what PayPal will do or not do. My question is if the item is not received, what is fair? After all I shipped the item ... and he did not receive it. I'm out the item in question and he is out his $$. I lose, he loses, we all lose. I know what I think is fair for both of us, but wonder what you think?

 

[Samgotit]

Anytime I ship internationally (or domestically) where the buyer refuses insurance, for whatever reason, I expressly tell the buyer that I am not responsible for events during the package's journey through the wild ether, through the Rube Goldberg machinery of shipping companies, through the hands of failed-juggler delivery staff.

I'd keep trying to communicate with the consignee, but, unfortunately, I think in this case you should offer a refund.

And after the PayPal dispute is closed, if your side of the story is correct, I'd lay into this little dweeb for not contacting you directly.

 

[The Actual]

did the buyer choose to use uninsured shipping? Did you offer insured shipping?

if yes then all risk was assumed by the buyer and you are not responsible for refunding


otherwise I think you should go ahead and refund, especially if the transaction wasn't even for too much money

 

[apatN]

That's a situation, meh. I don't believe you are responsible. He might even have received it already btw.

I don't know how much money is involved, but why not split the costs?

 

[krmathis]

I say it depends on what shipping and responsibility you both agreed on.
When shipping unregistered on the buyers request its quite normal to agree on that the buyer take full responsibility.

But if its a cheap piece of gear it may be worth thinking about sharing the cost of refunding everything, to please the buyer and not get a negative feedback.

 

[Aimless1]

Whether this is a high value or a small item, the right and/or fair thing to do is still the same.

"If you pay this weekend I'll be able to send it out on Monday via USPS. "

In the interest of factual details this was pretty much the extent of the shipping discussion. I try to be normally get the buyer to agree to the terms of shipping they prefer. The item costs less than $20, therefore it did not make financial sense for the buyer to bump up to Priority Mail with tracking/insurance nor to Fed Ex. Because of the small value I intend to just write this off to experience and move on. But what if it was a $2500 item?

So ignoring what PayPal requires, the question remains what is the right and fair thing to do? I'm not really asking what to do .... it's more of an ethical and moral question than an advice question.

 

[ecclesand]

If I were in this situation, I would refund the money because I chose to ship via First Class mail instead of Priority. I actually did this a while ago and was on pins and needles afterward until I received word that the item was received. The couple of bucks saved on shipping was not worth the added stress. Now everything shipped via USPS goes Priority.

 

[coco]

"Dispute - what's the right thing to do?"

It sucks but...the right thing to do is a refund. He fulfilled his end by paying for goods and shipping, however, you didn't. Your end of the agreement was to get the goods to him for payment. The goods would be your responsibility until delivered to him. I have been in your place a number of times, shipping without insurance, it is a gamble unless you have it in writing that insurance has been refused and item was shipped.

 

[linuxworks]

hard one to call.

the shipper, in a kind and caring world would take pains to ensure that the buyer GETS his goods.

buyers can be dumb and not even think to ask for better shipping. its not always on their minds (sadly). they often want 'cheap price, bar none'.

I've shipped goods and I almost always 'upgrade' to priority or some insured service. even if it costs me an extra dollar (or more, for when I ship to oz!) but at least I sleep well knowing I didn't cheap-out on shipping. a few bucks is not going to kill me even if it comes out of my pocket. and it gets me less hassles later.

if the buyer INSISTS on uninsured, I get them to state that in email and be clear about it. even then I'm not sure I like doing business with people who are ok about being penny wise and pound foolish.

cheaping out on shipping is a bad risk these days. my GF sent me things from europe and about half of them never made it to the US! ;( she also cheaps out on shipping which annoys the hell out of me....

 

[Aimless1]

Good and valid points all.

Easy to say that you would choose priority mail but let's remember that the upgrade for international shipping would have been about $30 for Priority mail ... on an item that sold for $16.00.

BTW, the real lesson learned here is to ALWAYS trust my gut. I was kind of leary about this one in the first place but let emotions rule over logic. So an inexpensive lesson learned. Yes, he agreed to first class shipping when he paid, but I should have been more clear about his options and had him choose in writing, as I usually do.

I had already stated that my intent is to simply refund the $$. My original opinion was that since I had proof of shipping and he agreed via payment to first class shipping, that he also had responsibility. My original opinion was that the fair thing to do was to split the loss 50/50. However, I was careless and didn't lock this one down on the shipping choice. I can see where my original opinion is wrong and the fair thing to do is to refund the entire amount. Oh well, first dispute ever and lessons learned.

Check out the USPS web site on international shipping. It is simply not cost effective to ship via Priority Mail or Fed Ex on low cost items.

 

[linuxworks]

on international, yes, I agree with you. I had missed that part.

on US shipping, prio over 'first class' (is that name a joke or what??) is just pennies whenever I go to to the PO and have them weigh and quote me at the counter. it almost never makes sense for US to US to downgrade to 1st class.

I recently bought an item that needed to be returned. the vendor said to 'use the cheapest shipping possible so we can reimburse you'. I did like that they were willing to pay for some return shipping but I was NOT about to pick 'lowest numerical cost' when this would leave me high and dry if the item never made it back. I paid for extra confirmed delivery (etc) and it *did* get there and the vendor did credit me back. I never cared as much about the return shipping being reimb'd but I did want the unit to GET there

on international, every thing costs. so, I agree, no 'auto upgrades' unless I get the buyer to ok to it. even if that means going to the PO, collecting data and returning with the options for HIM to pick. costs more time but it also ensures HE takes 100% resp. in the shipping. I really don't care to be 'in the loop' in shipping, I pass the exact cost along and have them pick the option they want. I strongly encourage 'confirmed insured' delivery and if its a few extra bucks, I'll auto-upgrade them - but not when its 10's of dollars. at that point they need to be put back into the decision loop (imo).