[Bjarne]

In this whole discussion I miss one thing: Output Impedance!
 
I think the HD800, like all the other Sennheiser phones, are designed to work best with very low output impedance of the amp. That's also the important factor, besides sheer power, to make the 'Veil' vanish on HD600/650.
 
On the other hand, AFAIK the Beyer A1 got a output impedance of >100 Ohm and so the Senns won't sing on them.
 
The impression of the sound by mOgwai backs my theory, because I experienced similar behaviour with some cans on high ohmic amps.

 

[Kees]

Quote:

In this whole discussion I miss one thing: Output Impedance!
 
I think the HD800, like all the other Sennheiser phones, are designed to work best with very low output impedance of the amp. That's also the important factor, besides sheer power, to make the 'Veil' vanish on HD600/650.
 
On the other hand, AFAIK the Beyer A1 got a output impedance of >100 Ohm and so the Senns won't sing on them.
 
The impression of the sound by mOgwai backs my theory, because I experienced similar behaviour with some cans on high ohmic amps.

Sorry, but that is not quite true. High impedance headphones don't want low impedance output from your amp. Low output impedance is needed to make sure low impedance headphones get enough current.
 
 

 

[Bjarne]

Quote:

Sorry, but that is not quite true. High impedance headphones don't want low impedance output from your amp. Low output impedance is needed to make sure low impedance headphones get enough current.
 
 

Maybe in theory, but in my experience and that of other headphone lovers, low impedance output works best. One guy also contacted Sennheiser on that topic and they stated, that they design for low ohmic sources. Also many top-notch amps are near 0 Ohm Z-Out and no one complains about them.
 
Have you checked your Senns or AKGs out on the same amp with different Z-Out?
 

 

[MacedonianHero]

Maybe in theory, but in my experience and that of other headphone lovers, low impedance output works best. One guy also contacted Sennheiser on that topic and they stated, that they design for low ohmic sources. Also many top-notch amps are near 0 Ohm Z-Out and no one complains about them.
 
Have you checked your Senns or AKGs out on the same amp with different Z-Out?
 

My experience don't support this either, I've tried my HD800s with many low impedance output amps (Concerto, B22, MAD Ear+HD, Peachtree Nova, among others) and in the end, the OTL WA2 (with my upgraded tubes) is still my favourite.

 

[Bjarne]

 
Quote:

My experience don't support this either, I've tried my HD800s with many low impedance output amps (Concerto, B22, MAD Ear+HD, Peachtree Nova, among others) and in the end, the OTL WA2 (with my upgraded tubes) is still my favourite.

You can't properly test the behavior of your phones with different output impedance this way. Of course different amps, with different output impedance will sound different - there are too many variables.
 
If you really want to test it, you have to use ONE amp, and one amp only, and change its output impedance. Normally this contains using a soldering iron and is not for the faint hearted. Then you'll see if your phone changes its sound on different output impedance. Or maybe it doesn't. But you'll find out.

 

[MacedonianHero]

 

You can't properly test the behavior of your phones with different output impedance this way. Of course different amps, with different output impedance will sound different - there are too many variables.
 
If you really want to test it, you have to use ONE amp, and one amp only, and change its output impedance. Normally this contains using a soldering iron and is not for the faint hearted. Then you'll see if your phone changes its sound on different output impedance. Or maybe it doesn't. But you'll find out.

But you stated:

"in my experience and that of other headphone lovers, low impedance output works best."

And some of the very best amps that match the HD800s are OTL amps like the WA2, Zana Deux and CSP-2. Here the output impedance is greater than SS amps, and yet many would argue (myself included) that the OTLs sound better.

 

[Bjarne]

Quote:

And some of the very best amps that match the HD800s are OTL amps like the WA2, Zana Deux and CSP-2. Here the output impedance is greater than SS amps, and yet many would argue (myself included) that the OTLs sound better.

I can understand that very well because of the analytical sound signature of the HD800 and the typical tube sound. But maybe if there were a tube amp with nearly 0 Ohm, you would even like that one best. 

 What is by the way not that easy to achieve in a tube amp.

 

[MacedonianHero]

I can understand that very well because of the analytical sound signature of the HD800 and the typical tube sound. But maybe if there were a tube amp with nearly 0 Ohm, you would even like that one best. 

 What is by the way not that easy to achieve in a tube amp.

Nope, I've mentioned the gear I've heard... a good OTL is the better way to go IMHO. Simply physics....OTLs can swing voltage easier...and for higher impedance headphones that is what you're going to need for power (V*I). You should give it a try.

You've been here a few weeks, I recommend that you get out to a few meets and try listening to as many combinations of gear that you can....you might be surprised.

 

[Bjarne]

Quote:

Nope, I've mentioned the gear I've heard... a good OTL is the better way to go IMHO. Simply physics....OTLs can swing voltage easier...and for higher impedance headphones that is what you're going to need for power (V*I). You should give it a try.

You've been here a few weeks, I recommend that you get out to a few meets and try listening to as many combinations of gear that you can....you might be surprised.

I will indeed and maybe I'll be surprised. But first I'll let me surprise by my upcoming STAX-Rig. 

 

[sk3383]

m0gwai,
 
We are eagerly awaiting your comments bro.......


 
Quote:

Yes, I'm hanging out to find out what happened as well. Don't keep us in suspenders.

 
Quote:

So m0gwai, did you end up getting your lcd-2s or did you make the 800s work for ya? Let us know how it turned out - best of luck in your quest

 

 

[Vidar1979]

What about just buying some T1's since you already own the A1 amplifier?
 
I have done some A/B comparisation of T1 and HD800 on a Naim Headline amplifier and I prefered T1.

 

[Mochan]

 

Good choice. If you don't like a headphone, the worst thing you can do IMO is to buy other gear to "fix" the problem. This is always working backwards for me.
 
If you don't like the sound, sell it and move on to the next headphone. Only work and build a system around a headphone you love, don't buy a headphone and try to fix it with extra gear. Well, you can if you have money to burn, but this isn't really as productive for me.
 
I say get forget the HD800 if you have a problem with its highs, and try something else, T1 might have the right tone, if not go to the dark side and get the LCD2.
​

 

[Shahrose]

 
Quote:

 

Good choice. If you don't like a headphone, the worst thing you can do IMO is to buy other gear to "fix" the problem. This is always working backwards for me.
 
If you don't like the sound, sell it and move on to the next headphone. Only work and build a system around a headphone you love, don't buy a headphone and try to fix it with extra gear. Well, you can if you have money to burn, but this isn't really as productive for me.
 
I say get forget the HD800 if you have a problem with its highs, and try something else, T1 might have the right tone, if not go to the dark side and get the LCD2.
​

I used to believe the same, but I've come to realize this is overly simplistic. For example, the HD800s may just be revealing a flaw in your upstream gear. Changing the problematic component may actually make the 800s enjoyable for the listener. With the transparency of high-end headphones, it has become increasingly important to have adequate ancillary gear to bring out their best. I've always felt that even high-end headphones can be made to sound quite mediocre with low-end gear. Many times, I've heard mid-tier headphones outperform upper-tier ones because the former were being fed by a better source/amp.
 
OTOH, if one wants a drastic change in sound, then sure, a change in headphone is warranted.

 

[EddieE]

I think Mochan is spot on. If no other headphones have sounded bad on your gear, why should you blame the gear rather than the headphones if one does?
 
I am all for modding the headphone itself in fact I'm quite enthusiastic about it. There is also nothing wrong with a good equaliser. If a headphone almost sounds right in every way and you can solve that with little expense - do it.
 
But there is more than just the added expense of the components to consider when trying to solve headphones with gear - you are potenitally ruining future headphones you might have loved by getting amps and dacs that are not neutral.
 
If you have a headphone that has too little bass for your tastes and you buy an amp that has artifically boosted bass - problem solved - well not really. Now you have headphones that sound bad to you on everything but an amp that will make any set of headphones you find the bass just right on over done. If a headphone has harsh and sibilant treble and you find a DAC with an out of date NOS DAC chip that drastically rolls off the treble you might call that "synergy" - I call it a bad amp and a bad DAC disguising each others issues. Again, any heapdhone you actually like the treble response of will be ruined by that DAC. 
 
It's like you're punishing the headphones you would naturally like for the benefit of pandering to one you don't.
 
This tends to only be behaviour only displayed with £1000+ headphones. No one buys a £100 headphone, doesn't like it and starts replacing other parts of their gear to see if it will solve the problems. It's a kind of deference to the god of expense; if it cost me £1000 and my amp cost me £300, the amp must be the problem as it is cheaper. Nonsense IMO.
 

 

[Shahrose]

Quote:

I think Mochan is spot on. If no other headphones have sounded bad on your gear, why should you blame the gear rather than the headphones if one does?
 

That's a whole different story...noone said that.