Digital/USB Piano
Jan 25, 2008 at 6:39 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 19

drizek

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I want to start learning how to play the piano so I was looking at getting a USB keyboard to hook up to my computer. I generally will not be using speakers with it since I live in an apartment. I also don't want to spend a lot of money. I would prefer to have weighted keys, but it is not required. I also want at least 60 or so keys.

What models do you guys use/recommend? What software is there (Windows software is fine, but I would prefer Linux)?

Or am I approaching this the wrong way? Should I just get a cheapo Casio keyboard instead. I don't want to do any recording or anything, I just basically want a portable cheap piano that I can hook up to my headphones.
 
Jan 25, 2008 at 6:53 PM Post #4 of 19
There are many different ways to go about this, depending on your needs and how much you are willing and able to spend. The language you used in the first post implies that you are looking for a keyboard more as a traditional instrument rather than a synthesizer. That is to say, you would probably be playing with both hands and using a foot for sustain, rather than playing with right hand and using left hand to tweak knobs and dials changing the sound. If this is correct, then the next question is can you afford $400-$500? If you can reach that price point, you can get an entry level digital stage piano.

The big deal about digital pianos is, they have 88, graded or scaled, hammer action keys. This mimic fairly well the key action of a real piano. For comparison, a MIDI controller with "fully weighted" keys will require about the right amount of force to press the key down, but the key will feel "spongy" because the mechanism to snap the key back into place does not respond like a real instrument. The graded or scaled part is a method of making the keys on the left side require a harder touch than the ones on the right, as is true on a grand piano. Not a big deal unless you actually perform on a real grand piano, but it probably does add to the realistic feel of these instruments.

The whole key issue aside, DPs come with their own bank of sounds (usually accoustic pianos, vintage electric pianos, vintage organs, a few other common options, and possibly a general midi set). These are not professional quality, but they aren't terrible either. They should have small speakers and also 1-2 headphone jacks, and possibly line outs as well. They will also have either traditional MIDI in/out or a USB interface, for use as a basic MIDI controller.

Digital pianos suffer a few fundamental limitations. They don't have an engine that creates trillions of sounds like a synth. They don't have a bunch of knobs, faders, drum pads, mod wheels, etc. like a MIDI controller. The hammer action keys are not good for certain synth styles, might not be able to use aftertouch, etc. So basically all of the limitations apply when you try to use a DP like a synth instead of like a piano. As a piano or a vintage EP or even a basic organ preset, they are quite nice.

If you have any Sam Ash or Guitar Center near you, go and mess around with everything that has keys on it, from the $100 Casio to the $3000 Korg. Don't worry that you don't know what you are doing, I'm sure they are used to it.
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Once you are done fooling around, spend some real time messing with the stuff in your price range to get an idea of the key response, features, and sounds.

On paper, the updated Casio line looks like a winner (PX-200, released last year, PX-120 and PX-320 apparently coming soon). I haven't tried the PX-200 in person though.
 
Jan 25, 2008 at 7:04 PM Post #5 of 19
Jan 25, 2008 at 7:06 PM Post #6 of 19
I agree with the Casio PX100. Great piano for new guys!
 
Jan 25, 2008 at 7:25 PM Post #7 of 19
Jan 25, 2008 at 10:19 PM Post #8 of 19
Thanks a lot for the px recommendations. I had never even seen those before.

Of course, the problem with head-fi is that while you get good advice, it totally kills any sort of budget you might have had. I had about $100 in mind with $200 being the cap. When I said "cheapo casio" I was referring to one of the $50-$70 models, not the $400 one
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But after seeing the digital pianos from casio I feel like getting anything else will just be money down the drain. They look very classy and get excellent reviews.

I will see if I an go to Guitar enter either today or tomorrow to take a look at some of them. The only differene that I can see between the PX110 and the PX120 is that the 120 support 128 notes while the 110 only does 32. This is a limitation of the DAC though, so if I hook it up to my computer it shouldn't make a difference, correct?

What does "scaled/graded" mean?

Generally speaking, is hooking it up through midi and using my Chaintech AV710 or a possible future iBasso D2(fat chance if I drop $400 on piano) going to provide better sound quality than plugging the headphones in directly?

Also, I should point out that I am not a complete noob. I took several years of piano lessons when I was younger. I forgot most of it, but I can still play simpler things(like the first part of Fur Elise). I am currently practicing on my dads Technics SNKN6500(I think it was something like $3000 when he bought it 7 years ago)

Before I posted here I was mostly looking at these m-audio keyboards.

M-Audio Keystation 61es USB MIDI Controller and more Keyboard Controllers at GuitarCenter.com.

M-Audio Keystation 88es USB MIDI Keyboard Controller and more Keyboard Controllers at GuitarCenter.com.

At double the price, is it really worth it to get the Casio PX?


Thanks for all the help.
 
Jan 25, 2008 at 10:26 PM Post #9 of 19
Quote:

Originally Posted by EsthetiX /img/forum/go_quote.gif
For weighted keys you can get an M-audio keystation 88 pro. Probably the best for the money.

I use a novation X station (built in soundcard/fx/synth, and all). AMAZING (semi weighted keys and I love them).

Then you get some software like this.. And BAM! You have a million dollar grand piano. It's sick! KVR: Native Instruments Akoustik Piano - Virtual Instrument

LISTEN to some MP3 demos of it in use here (left side): NATIVE INSTRUMENTS : Products : Sampling Line : Akoustik Piano



Thanks. So with the 88 pro(i was looking at the semiweighted es earlier), it is back up to $400. At the same price as the casio PX, which is the better buy?

The casio has the advantage of being just plug n play with headphones/speakers and and doesn't necessarily require a computer. The m-audio on the other hand has a bung of buttons and knobs, as well as an LCD. The m-audio also is powered by the USB port, which is convenient. The Casio is much better looking though.
 
Jan 26, 2008 at 12:44 AM Post #10 of 19
Trust me in this: save yourself the trouble now and plunk down a good sum for a good DP. They are worth the investment. Don't think that you can be too cheap when you want to learn to play piano. A crappy piano ($50~70) will just be a cheap plastic toy that makes you loath playing. I did the same thing, and bought a cheap casio (the kiddie one with key lights and springy plastic keys). And boy was it a dread!

If you can afford it, get the higher Casio model. Look carefully at the specs. The polyphony part is important-- up to a certain point. the 32 polyphony on the px-110 means that there will only be 32 simultaneous sounds coming out at once. And this does not mean 32 notes (I doubt that you can hit that many at once...), but add in sustained notes, thick chords (five or four note chords), and remember, each "tone" can be a layered sound generated from multiple samples. This means that a low register C might have more than one sample (quite possibly 2 or 3 samples of different strike velocity mixed down together). Put all these together, 32 polyphony can quickly run out.

As for key action of the DP, it is almost as important as the polyphony, if not more so. ALWAYS get fully weighted keys. Semi weighted keys are only good if all you want to learn is to play on synthesizers. Also, the graded weight refers to the physical graduation of weight from the highest note to the lowest. This emulates the real aspect of an acoustic piano, because of the longer strings of the lower keys that give the lower keys heavier weight. All in all, you want a DP that comes as close to a real acoustic piano as possible, both in sound and feel.

The M-Audio 88 pro seems to have a pretty mixed view. Some love it, some don't. For the best bang of your bucks, though, I would really recommend the Casio Privia series. For your (stretched) budget, I would say that the PX-200 which I have is a terrific player. 128 polyphony with some of the best key action you can find under 1000 dollars. The speakers are adequate, though I recommend using headphones with them for the best sound. The retail price comes to around 700 dollars. Sure, it is way out of your budget (of $50!), but trust me, you WILL eventually buy an expensive DP later on anyway. Might as well get a good one that will last you down the road.

Lastly, if you are still too hesitant in shelling out this much for a piano, you can consider a financing plan. many online retailers (Sweetwater.com, musiciansfriend.com, etc) offer generous interest free financing plans (for 12 months, usually). Look carefully at them and make your best decision.

It is a joy to play piano and make your own music. A great piano can take you closer to the music itself than ANY headphones can give. And considering how much we spend in headphone paraphernalia, why hesitate to spend on a piano?
 
Jan 26, 2008 at 12:48 AM Post #11 of 19
Quote:

Originally Posted by drizek /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I will see if I an go to Guitar enter either today or tomorrow to take a look at some of them. The only differene that I can see between the PX110 and the PX120 is that the 120 support 128 notes while the 110 only does 32. This is a limitation of the DAC though, so if I hook it up to my computer it shouldn't make a difference, correct?


It is the polyphony limitation of the rendering hardware. 32 voices is usually plenty. You have to get in to some pretty serious jazz or classical piano (or play duets on the same keyboard) for this to even be an issue. If you use the keyboard as a MIDI controller, the polyphony limitation and pretty much everything else becomes dependent on the software you use.

I think the older Privias do not have any USB connector, so that is something to keep in mind (a USB MIDI interface costs about $40).

The sound engines on different models are probably not the same, so maybe one sounds better to you than another. This is something you can't really decide from a spec sheet.


Quote:

What does "scaled/graded" mean?


The keys on the left have a heavier feel than the ones on the right, as on a grand piano.

Quote:

Generally speaking, is hooking it up through midi and using my Chaintech AV710 or a possible future iBasso D2(fat chance if I drop $400 on piano) going to provide better sound quality than plugging the headphones in directly?


No audio data is transmitted by MIDI. Just what note you pressed, when you pressed and released it, how hard you pressed it, etc. Then you would be using your computer software as a synthesizer to generate audio based on the keys pressed. Then you can hunt for good free software, or shell out big bucks for the stuff the pros use.
 
Jan 26, 2008 at 2:39 AM Post #12 of 19
Thanks

A USB/Midi cable is about $20 on ebay, so it isn't too big of a deal.

The reason why I am hesitant to go all out for a fully weighted DP is that the 61 key semiweighted Technics keyboard I am using now is pretty decent. Not as good as a real piano obviously, but considering that the m-audio 88 es is literally half the price of the pro and the only difference being(for my uses) the weight of the keys, it is a bit tough to justify. I will have to try them out myself in order to really see if it is worth it before I buy.

I saw this piano at guitar centers website and from the reviews/specs it seems like a better buy than either the casio or the m-audio at the $400 mark. It comes with a sustain pedal as well as a wooden stand/bench. It also does line-out, unlike the Casio. The red lining on the tops of the keys looks pretty classy too. It has an LCD display and more powerful speakers than the casio (2x12.5w vs 2x8w).

Musicians Friend also has this one available for $400, but there is a $70 shipping charge. If I can price match at GC this looks like another good option.
 
Jan 27, 2008 at 2:45 AM Post #13 of 19
Well I ended up with the m-audio 88 es.

The store demo Williams Encore was broken, and the salesperson advised against getting one since he has seen a lot of complaints. I also felt that the keys didn't feel right anyway, and that the casio was better.

They had the new Casio PX120, but I felt the keys were a bit stiff. The CD100 was mushy. The M-audio pro didn't feel much better than the es, and was a bit cheap. From what I could tell, the pro wasn't even scaled.

The es was a lot better than I expected it to be. They keys could be better, but it isn't bad and is better than a regular keyboard. None of the pianos that I tried that were below $1000 felt like the real thing, so I wasn't really too excited about any of them.

So basically the digital pianos didnt meet my expectations, and the m-audio exceeded them, so I ended up going with it. Sure, I would prefer the casio, but it is simply not worth the extra $250(after taxes/MIDI cable/10% discount I got on the m-audio).
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 7:26 AM Post #14 of 19
Hmm, really not sure if I'd recommend the m-audio 88 es.. M-Audio tends to be known for cheezy response feel to their keys. I have not tried the ES but a friend of mine has the Pro 88 and it feels pretty solid. I've never been a fan of casio. If you ever want to get into writing and recording/producing your own music (as hobby or whatever), I really recommend the 88 pro if you're on a stetched budget. As someone else mentioned. You really do get what you pay for with these keyboards and I think the 88 pro is about the lowest I'd want to spend on something with fully weighted keys. Personally, I can't stand fully weighted keys. (I don't like cheesy springy ones either though) The feel of my novation is perfect for me.

You may want to go hit up KVRaudio.com forums and look for recommendations there. I don't think there are many other places on the internet where you will find better advice.

Also, last time I went into guitar center they gave me a midi cable free with my purchase of a totally unrelated product. You can find midi cables pretty cheap ($10). I use USB/AB cables though since my keyboards double as external soundcards.

OH... And do not EVER go off reviews from guitar center website.
 
Jan 29, 2008 at 12:23 AM Post #15 of 19
I wasn't so sure about getting it at first because I read a lot of reviews online that said it felt cheap and whatnot. However, when I actually played around with it at the store I liked it. The keys are springy, but I prefer them to the stiff keys on the Casio and the cheapo keys on the Williams. None of the hammer boards in my price range impressed me much. The 88 pro seemed to have about the same weight as the 88es.

After using it for a couple days I have grown to like it and do not regret not going with the casio.

Right now I am trying to figure things out on the software end of things. I am currently using FL Studio 7, but I was wondering if there is anything better available for free. My main problem is a slight delay. I am currently using crap onboard graphics on my laptop though until I can get my desktop going, so hopefully that problem will sort itself out.
 

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