[Ghoostknight]

I’ve frequently been surprised by how even highly experienced audiophiles typically listen, which compared to my colleagues appears to be highly chaotic and undisciplined, they usually cannot focus their concentration so intently or precisely. Worse still, they often don’t even seem to know the difference between hearing something and experiencing something, EG. They do not differentiate between what they are hearing and what they are feeling (their emotional response to what they are hearing) when listening to the music.

This is a particular problem for several reasons: Firstly, emotional response is variable, both from person to person and even within the same person, because it is affected by numerous factors that may have absolutely nothing to do with the actual sound we’re hearing. For example, stress can obviously affect our emotional response, so too can our general mental state, our mood, if we’re hungry, tired, relaxed or various other factors. Secondly, it leads to false assertions, for instance, claims of hearing differences when in fact they’re not hearing differences, they’re just experiencing some slightly different emotional response that have nothing to do with what they’re hearing. And thirdly, emotional responses are even more easily influenced by biases than hearing, so that leaves audiophiles more vulnerable to marketing.

because this is one big part of the listening expierence, you (or atleast i) just got this as i was upgrading my Hifi

its one thing to get a random emotional response... but its quite interesting if the emotional response is fairly similar from day to day listening.... thats why people start to bring emotional response into the equation...

some setups just dont get you excited compared to others... its what its

 

[gregorio]

because this is one big part of the listening expierence, you (or atleast i) just got this as i was upgrading my Hifi

It is for the casual listener … you seem to be proving my point!

its one thing to get a random emotional response... but its quite interesting if the emotional response is fairly similar from day to day listening.... thats why people start to bring emotional response into the equation...

It IS quite interesting, which is why composers have been studying it for 700 years or so, it’s why music exists as a commercial product and why we have genres. Also, emotional response IS part of the equation but professional and non-casual listeners are expected to have at least a basic understanding and ability to separate out those parts of the equation, rather than just lumping them all together as the same thing! In a stunning demonstration of irony, audiophiles without that basic understanding and ability will sometimes then claim that those who do possess that understanding and ability have a hearing deficiency and/or seriously inferior audio reproduction equipment!

G

 

[BS5711]

In a stunning demonstration of irony, audiophiles without that basic understanding and ability will sometimes then claim that those who do possess that understanding and ability have a hearing deficiency and/or seriously inferior audio reproduction equipment!

Do you have a look through the general threads here on HF or perhaps other social media groups related to audio with chat between enthusiasts who are essentially all untrained casual listeners ?

I think the use of “sometimes” as I highlighted in your comment above is a dramatic understatement.

In most “normal” audio forums, not Sound Science, this happens a lot if one questions why folks hear differences between equipment or settings etc. Very often rather than sometimes the response is along the lines that hearing abilities differ and your equipment is not sufficiently resolving to hear the differences that are apparently very obvious to them.

Seems to me there is a massive part of consumer audio built around folks not understanding the difference between sound generated at the transducers and the sound they perceive. I don’t believe HF and a lot of social media discussion group could exist in their current form without such lack of understanding across such a large part of the consumer base.

I don’t claim any kind of in depth knowledge on the matter but I know there is a significant difference between real and perceived sound and can therefore be a little more discerning in respect of what difference equipment will or more often won’t make. That is a mindset that simply doesn’t seem to exist in a huge part of the user base here and on other discussion groups, they “believe their ears” and for them that is all that matters, they seem to treat their hearing ability as a finely tuned testing device not a rather easily influenced human sense.

Edited to add: this is so prevalent that I have times when I doubt myself and wonder if these folks are actually onto something that I am completely missing.

 

[Ghoostknight]

but professional and non-casual listeners are expected to have at least a basic understanding and ability to separate out those parts of the equation

i think professionals (or those who can play music in some way) have a completely different view on things when they listen to something compared to casual listeners/non-musicians, and probably also have learned to "dissect" the music better

but i see also where audiophiles come from, music is a "whole package" you get, not just great highs, perfect vocals or whatever and somehow some equipment can raise the emotional factor (a lot), its not just about the source material

In a stunning demonstration of irony, audiophiles without that basic understanding and ability will sometimes then claim that those who do possess that understanding and ability have a hearing deficiency and/or seriously inferior audio reproduction equipment!

well people try to find a reason why they hear a difference and others dont, i also suspect that the setup does matter alot
from a hearing standpoint i think we are all more or less the same, but i think "training" and listening expierence matters alot

i have way less trouble categorizing changes now then i had few years ago as i started out, tho i immediatly heared subtle changes between dacs and cables for example AFTER i switched to Presonus eris e8 studio monitors

as soon i either pick headphones or go for any lower end setup (and the presonus are quite cheap) i also stop hearing differences or they are way more subtle

i still suspect that the AB amplifier in my older presonus are worth it but i havent done much comparisons speaker wise.. i just know the presonus give an incredible sound for the money compared to pretty much anything unless its another good speaker system..

 

[gregorio]

I think the use of “sometimes” as I highlighted in your comment above is a dramatic understatement.

Yes, at the least I was being very conservative!

Edited to add: this is so prevalent that I have times when I doubt myself and wonder if these folks are actually onto something that I am completely missing.

I have a great deal of respect for members of the audiophile community who somehow buck the group think, who arrive at and maintain an accurate/factual/rational view point despite everything they’re hearing from their community. For me it was far easier, I come from a professional music engineer background where I was warned very early on never to reference the audiophile world or risk being treated by experienced professionals as a delusional idiot suckered by ridiculous marketing, so I didn’t have the difficulty of fighting the group think (of my group).

but i see also where audiophiles come from, music is a "whole package" you get, not just great highs, perfect vocals or whatever and somehow some equipment can raise the emotional factor (a lot), its not just about the source material

But audiophiles should have the knowledge that it is a “whole package”, EG. That it’s a number of different things packaged together, not just a single thing. It’s not just “an experience” but a package of the sound reproduced, what one hears and a bunch of biases and resultant perceptions which together create “an experience”.

well people try to find a reason why they hear a difference and others dont …

But they refuse to believe the actual reason and then make-up a whole bunch of ridiculous/nonsense reasons, led by false marketing.

i have way less trouble categorizing changes now then i had few years ago as i started out, tho i immediatly heared subtle changes between dacs and cables for example AFTER i switched to Presonus eris e8 studio monitors

That seems to be a perfect example, did you experience a difference (“subtle changes”) or did you actually hear a difference? Are you capable of differentiating between the two and if so, how?

G