[drewski]

I purchased a used Sugden Headmaster a few months ago. I tried it, but wasn't impressed at all by it. I first used it with my old AKG K340's that I dug out of storage. The sound was distant and a bit harsh. I thought the problem was because the K340's were so darn hard to drive. So I went ahead and purchased a pair of Senns, and much to my regret, answered a wanted add on Audiogon and sold my beloved K340's. After further break in of my HD600, I realized that the Sugden was still quite harsh and not very musical, even with the senns. As a last ditch attempt to keep the Sugden, I then borrowed a set of Grado RS2's, but still didn't get the sound that I was after. So I finally gave up and sold the Headmaster. Please don't take offense if you have a Headmaster- there are a ton of positive posts regarding this amp, it's just not suited for my taste.

So my question is, what home headphone amps are out there that are warm sounding, but yet still detailed. My main source is an Arcam FMJ 23, which can be extremely bright if not partnered with the right equipment, and Virtual Dynamics Audition power and interconnect cables. I listen to mostly Jazzy type stuff, but some dance music as well. I'm looking at the Gilmore, but does anyone know if this is similar to the Sugden in terms of sound? I'm also looking at some of the tube stuff like the EarMax and the Antique sound labs stuff. Or is the way to go to buy an older integrated or receiver with a good headphone jack (I'd prefer not to do this because I have limited rack space). I'm trying to keep around $500 used because I don't use my home system much with headphones.

I'd like to hear any suggestions or experiences that you have with non-portable amps.

Thanks!

 

[dd3mon]

In approximtely the same price range as the Sugden, an RKV can be had. The sound has been described as having a slightly rolled off treble, lush midrange, solid bottom end, but altogether more accurate than many lower priced tube amps. Given your source, I would think this would be a great option. Many have raved about the synergy between 600's and RKV. Slightly lower priced is the Earmax Pro - a long thread discussing these two amps can be found here.

-dd3mon

 

[joelongwood]

Are you sure there's nothing wrong with the Sugden, because the word "harsh" is as far from that amp as possible. I've done an A/B comparison of the RKV and the Sugden, using the K340s, and I have to listen really hard to find any difference. To my ears, the RKV throws a larger soundstage and goes a tad deeper in the bass, while the Sugden has slightly more extended, yet still very smooth, highs. The Sugden has a bit (very little) thicker midrange. The K340s sound better, to my ears, with the RKV, for the simple fact that I think these things require a helluva lot of power to sing. It should be noted that these differences (other than the size of the soundstage) are only audible with certain recordings, and at certain volume levels. At times, these two amps are indistinguishable. I haven't compared them to the Earmax Pro yet.
Maybe it's your source, which you say can be bright, or your cables. The Sugden, in and of itself, is NOT harsh............to my ears, of course.

 

[Gergor]

As a headmaster owner, I'm sorry to hear that you don't like it. It seems like a EarMax Pro would be what you'll be looking for....

 

[Number9]

I would characterize my K340s having a warm sound on their own.

So yes, look elsewhere in the chain. Maybe IC cables? I've found Virtual Dynamics ICs to be noticeably warmer sounding than my Audio Note ICs.

 

[Gergor]

Quote:

Originally posted by drewski My main source is an Arcam FMJ 23, which can be extremely bright if not partnered with the right equipment

You may want to do somthing about your source then.

 

[ServinginEcuador]

drewski,

It seems like you may be sensitive to high frequency sounds. You've got some pretty good ICs in those Auditions, your source, which is the same as mine, is extremely good, all it would take is something to tame the highs a little bit and it sounds like you'd be in hog heaven. It's been said that the RKV is a little rolled off, but teamed up with my Sony cans, which are supposed to be bright, it is just right. There is nothing harsh or overdone at ALL in the high-end of these cans on this amp.

Someone is coming over tomorrow with a set of Senns and a Cardas cable to check out my RKV, so I'll give a listen as see what they sound like teamed up with this amp.

I realize that the RKV alone is out of your range, but from what you've said it sounds like a really valid option. If it is too much money to plunk down, the Gilmore Dynamic might be the ticket. I have never heard one, but have read repeatedly that it is wonderful sounding. And at $500 it's right up your alley.

 

[dparrish]

I agree with others that you may want to try a different interconnect (but I gather you've already sold the Sugden).

I also agree with joelongwood that the Sugden isn't inherently harsh on top. Yes, it is more extended than many amps, but overall I would say neutral. I do find the bass a bit lacking with the Sugden compared to some other amps, and this high frequency tilt or balance may be what you're hearing.

I would say that one of the HeadRoom amps, say the Maxed Out Home, for instance, might be more to your liking, since it is pretty detailed overall (especially the reference version) and has more bass output and hence not as lean of a sound as the Sugden. But based on your budget, this may be more than you can/are willing to spend.

The RKV is also a smoother sounding, more bass-heavy amp. It does have a pleasing sound which is fairly detailed for a tube amp. It is not detailed enough for my taste, but it might work for your listening preferences.

 

[kelly]

I agree with Joe. Harshness is in no way a fault of the Sugden. In fact, I found the Sugden overly smoothing some of the treble to the extent that it made sources more alike. ("Transparent" my ass.) Anyway, if there is a harshness, your Sugden is broken or the problem is elsewhere--the recording, the player, the headphone, cables, etc.

Headphones get you up close and personal with just how bad some recordings are, especially some digital ones. You may just not be used to that.

 

[drewski]

Thank you all for your valuable feedback. I think there are quite a few RKV fans out there, so that may be my next venture. A little bit more than I want to spend, but I'd rather get the right amp the first time around rather than having to buy 3 or 4 before I find the right one. I'm sure I could sell if I don't like it, but I just hate to be the one that takes the depreciation on new equipment

As for my source, maybe I didn't state that correctly... I've heard many call the Arcam cd players bright, but I feel that it's the perfect match for my 2 channel audio system. I've auditioned almost every CD player in the 2-3K range, and this was my all round favorite. The Rega Jupiter was my second choice, but was just a little too laid back for my taste. As for my interconnects, I'm fortunate enough to know most of the local dealers in my area, so I've tried a ton of interconnects and speaker cables- I've not heard any interconnect in the sub $1000 price range that I like better than the Virtual Dynamics Audition (or speaker cable for that matter).

ServinginEcuador, you may have hit the nail on the head. I've never heard a speaker with a metal domed tweeter that I've liked, so that may mean I am somewhat sensitive to high frequencies. I'm really interested what you think of the RKV and the Senn's. Don't you just love your Arcam CD player!

I don't think there was anything wrong with the unit... Don't get me wrong, I didn't think the Sugden was awful. For things like drums (like the "Sheffield Drum record" and "Dafos" cd and albums), this amp was a lot of fun. The snap of the snare drum was incredible. But for my music, it just didn't do it for me... remember the corny "York Peppermint Patty" commercials where the people almost get orgasmic after eating a York Peppermint Patty- that's what I was hoping for from this amp

Thanks again everyone for great feedback!

 

[ServinginEcuador]

Quote:

Originally posted by drewski ServinginEcuador, you may have hit the nail on the head. I've never heard a speaker with a metal domed tweeter that I've liked, so that may mean I am somewhat sensitive to high frequencies. I'm really interested what you think of the RKV and the Senn's. Don't you just love your Arcam CD player!

I'll make sure to spend a little time with them tomorrow and let you know. I'll also ask AC1 to post what he thought of the combo also, so you'll get it from two perspectives.

I absolutely love the Arcam. It was WAY too much money, but I sold my old unit and took the plunge. Worth every penny for teh used price which I paid for it. Now to see if it survives the trip to Ecuador on Tuesday! That's always the big scare - packing it and having the airlines throw my luggage around like it was some kind of toy. Oh well, it just gives me one more thing to pray about and leave in hands other than my own.

 

[drewski]

Kelly, Dparish, Joelongwood,

From the research I did before buying, I never read anything about the Sugden having even the slightest bit of harshness or brightness... so very possibly, it was a combination of my equipment. I did try other sources and cables but just never got the right combinations.

Also, although I'm very into 2 channel music, I've never have had much of an interest in headphones until now. I did buy a pair of AKG K340's 18 years ago, but they only had maybe 200 total hours on them before I sold them a few months ago. But now I have a little drewska (a female drewski) and a little drewski, so that's why I'm getting into cans. Kelly, you may be right- I may not know exactly what I'm listening for. Two channel is much different because you can adjust your room and your surroundings to sometime match your preferences- I can't really change my head

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by drewski Also, although I'm very into 2 channel music, I've never have had much of an interest in headphones until now. I did buy a pair of AKG K340's 18 years ago, but they only had maybe 200 total hours on them before I sold them a few months ago. But now I have a little drewska (a female drewski) and a little drewski, so that's why I'm getting into cans. Kelly, you may be right- I may not know exactly what I'm listening for. Two channel is much different because you can adjust your room and your surroundings to sometime match your preferences- I can't really change my head

drew

Were most of your comparisons using the HD600? There is a slight harshness on the very tip of the HD600's extension that I originally thought was a source problem. Most HD600 folk don't like to talk about it and some don't think it exists. It's definitely a lot less apparent on amps like the RKV where the treble extension is slightly rolled off.

If you haven't upgraded the cable on your HD600 yet, that's another thing to explore. If you're not morally opposed to expensive cables, the Stefan Audio Art Equinox may be of use to you.

The RKV may indeed be a good amp for you because in addition to it being more relaxed in the highs, it also creates a much larger soundstage--relaxing you from the presentation a bit. You may also check into amps that employ a crossfeed filter. HeadRoom's and Meier's amps both include crossfeed filters and Meier has an outboard crossfeed in the works (so you could use it with RKV or Sugden).

 

[wallijonn]

Kelly, Quote:

There is a slight harshness on the very tip of the HD600's extension that I originally thought was a source problem. Most HD600 folk don't like to talk about it and some don't think it exists.

Greg is one of those that finds that harshness very irritating.

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

drewski,

Don't worry you are not the only one that doesn't dig the Sudgen Headmaster; there were others who found it bright also.