[MikoLayer]

Quote:

Really, at today's levels of performance, who cares about battles like this? So the AMD processor is 20% faster than an Intel processor. Big deal. No one is going to notice, unless they play games. These days memory and disk are the real speed bottlenecks, and a processor that is 20% faster doesn't translate into a perceptible speed increase in real applications.

precisely. so how is this mini mac going to be any better than $30 duron combo from outputs/fry's? i wholeheartedly agree unless you game, you wont need much more than something around 1gigs duron or tuallatin(sp?) celeron (and this is coming from a heavy wmv9 video watcher). in case you havnt noticed, there are online surveys indicating dell's customers want amd chips in their machines, but dell lies to everyone and denies the fact flat out. there is no denying amd64s dominate the gaming scene, but at the same time lower end bartons and durons provide much better price/performace than anything intel has to offer.

Quote:

I haven't built a machine from scratch since 1998. It's just not worth my time to figure it all out, order all the parts, pay shipping, put it all together, etc. In the end, I'm not convinced you save that much money anyway. Maybe $200 on a complete system. Dell pays much less for parts than I can, even from Newegg, because they buy in huge volume.

i am sure they buy for less in volume, and thats how they fill up their own pockets. that doesnt necessarily mean you as a customer get lower price; instead what you are stuck with is processor that is largely frowned upon by non-computer-illiterates and bunch of useless software and whatnot. no offense, i find your argument of DIY being not worth your time or not saving that much money detached from the reality. you make DIY sound like a rocket science when it really is simple as building lego blocks and setting up software which you need to do with vendor computers anyway unless you like using computers with less than optimal predefined settings (of windows and such)

 

[edesilva]

Bootman & Adam, see this:

http://macteens.com/more.php?id=410_0_1_0_C

DVHS decks will permit--as should this--bit perfect, but limited to playback on the same machine. I'm talking HD content distributed via CATV, not OTA.

If this app enables DVHS functionality, and Comcast has enabled firewire on the SA8250HD, I believe I can record, for example, HBO-HD and watch it over and over. If I email the file to someone else, however, they will not be able to watch it.

 

[bangraman]

It is fascinating seeing how the reason why I mentioned the Mac Mini has gone straight over most people's heads.


It would be fair to say though that although I am quite a geek, I'm usually far more interested in the ends than the means. The same philosophy in our context for example is what leads me to prefer the iPod in place of the iRiver. And the same applies to what I want to happen in my living room... and it will also apply to the 'masses', not the geeks.


The fact that I can buy a quiet compact machine off the shelf is important, but while you geeks are rambling on about the hardware, it is the software which is most important to me. I didn't think that OSX merited consideration as a business platform although it did certainly make an impact on the way I wanted to work. However, having used a Powerbook and played with an iMac for a while, it's application as a home PC, especially a living room PC for the non-geek is blatantly obvious to me. Want games? I would have thought tacking on an XBox / PS2 would be the more obvious thing to do (in the living room).


Until now, it was either the all-in-one iMac or the tower machines, which weren't really options when considering a PC in the living room. Now with the Mac Mini, everything makes sense to me.

 

[Tim D]

No one is saying computer DIY is rocket science. I consider it in a way unskilled labor. I know a lot more about computing technology than I did years before when I was into building my own computers. Sorry but if I had to compare a CS PHD who knows the latest and greatest algorithms, and the geek who knows the latest and greatest computer components, I'd have to say the former requires more skill, knowledge, and effort with the benefits of probably having more payoff. All I needed to know back then was to put a little research into benchmarks, reviews, and specs of all the components, much like market research. Then there is assembly and if things don't go well troubleshooting. If you have *never* had to go through the experience of having to swap out one trouble component either due to undisclosed compatibility problems and you have built many iterations of computers, you either haven't built enough or you really have a magic touch and should start a business. Or perhaps components just get along much better now than they did 5+ years ago. But when you are making a special purpose computer that is pushing the limits of performance, size, and heat, chances are higher of needing more attention.

Having said all this, lets say I rate my free time at $100/hr, what is the MINIMUM time I need to research, order, and build my mini-mac equivalent? I'd guess more than the cost of a Mini Mac.

Now if magically you are so skilled as to produce a Mini Mac alternative for amazingly cheap in absolutely no time, start your own business and really earn something out of the hours you put in. That is the only way you can really put your money where your mouth is in debating the 'value' of a mini mac.

It is funny how people say, hey I can build that...oh btw I happen to not care about size. Hey I can build that...oh I happen to not care about fan noise, yadda yadda yadda. Hey I can build that...oh I happen to consider my free time absolutely free.

Lets get some people that say hey I can build that, and sell it to others, and actually make money (and there will be people who can say this, but they might not necessarily be doing the gruntwork and assembling the parts).

 

[kugino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman Until now, it was either the all-in-one iMac or the tower machines, which weren't really options when considering a PC in the living room. Now with the Mac Mini, everything makes sense to me.

i agree...say what you will about the aesthetics/processing power/video power of the Mac Mini, but it does offer a great OS in a small and IMO nice looking form factor. windows users don't like it because it's different - and i understand that. it takes getting used to and if you're proficient in keyboard shortcuts and where all the stuff is in XP, of course it's going to be somewhat discouraging figuring out a new OS. that doesn't mean, however, that it's not as easy or as powerful as XP or your favorite flavor of linux...

sticking that huge g5 powermac next to the t.v. probably isn't the sleek solution to a minimalist home theater set-up...but for people who like OS X, the mini affords the option of using a mac now. i don't see it as THE solution to the mac vs. pc debate, rather a solution for the mac person who wants something small for home-theater uses...

 

[Nospam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReasonablyLucid Um... http://sys.us.shuttle.com/ ...

Yes, the Shuttles are nice. In fact, except for a couple of items, they're pretty much what I wish Apple would offer (compact, 1 PCI and 1 AGP slot). I even built one a couple of years ago that's working very nicely as a noise generating space heater

Unfortunately, I don't think any of the Shuttle offerings come in under $500 (mine cost over $700 without LCD, even after using existing HD and CD-burner), and they all sound like a jet engine. They also look ugly, compared to the Mini (although they do look better than 99% of PC cases out there). So no, they are not in the same league as the Mini, when you are looking for a compact, quiet, good-looking set-top box for your living room, geared toward the general consumer.

 

[ReasonablyLucid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nospam Yes, the Shuttles are nice. In fact, except for a couple of items, they're pretty much what I wish Apple would offer (compact, 1 PCI and 1 AGP slot). I even built one a couple of years ago that's working very nicely as a noise generating space heater Unfortunately, I don't think any of the Shuttle offerings come in under $500 (mine cost over $700 without LCD, even after using existing HD and CD-burner), and they all sound like a jet engine. They also look ugly, compared to the Mini (although they do look better than 99% of PC cases out there). So no, they are not in the same league as the Mini, when you are looking for a compact, quiet, good-looking set-top box for your living room, geared toward the general consumer.

They only sound like a jet engine when you have the fanspeed set to max all the time. If you set it to low in the bios its very quiet.

I can hear my TV (You know that annoying high pitched noise they make?) over my shuttle. Who cares if it puts out more heat in this situation? it would be in a living room which is substantally bigger than an office. The heat it does put out you wouldnt notice. The TV puts out 10x the amount of heat with that giant tube...

 

[MikoLayer]

Quote:

It would be fair to say though that although I am quite a geek, I'm usually far more interested in the ends than the means. The same philosophy in our context for example is what leads me to prefer the iPod in place of the iRiver. And the same applies to what I want to happen in my living room... and it will also apply to the 'masses', not the geeks. The fact that I can buy a quiet compact machine off the shelf is important, but while you geeks are rambling on about the hardware, it is the software which is most important to me. I didn't think that OSX merited consideration as a business platform although it did certainly make an impact on the way I wanted to work. However, having used a Powerbook and played with an iMac for a while, it's application as a home PC, especially a living room PC for the non-geek is blatantly obvious to me. Want games? I would have thought tacking on an XBox / PS2 would be the more obvious thing to do (in the living room).

I too happen to be far more interested in the ends, not the means; the difference could be that i place more customizability, flexibility, price/performance ratio and sheer performance over things like simplicity and whatnot. that is also why i prefer irivers to ipods.

personally, i still think the new mac mini is not very competitively priced as all vendor computers happen to be. that is not to say these new mac have no use at all. but the mass that would likely jump on to this mini mac bandwaggon would be none other than people unaware there are alternatives to ipod in the portable mp3 player realm, the majority of those people anyway. minis are highly likely be another success thanks to Apple's advertisement department, but how can you take away the market segment that did not exist to begin with?

you keep referring us as 'geeks' (i am not offended btw, no harsh feelings

), but where do you draw the line? mac mini looks no less geekier than some of nicely done HTPC cases and vice versa. the whole point is the 'masses' are not even aware of this whole HTPC business. apple may stir up a market that has not been very 'mass friendly' just like the way they did with the personal computers back in the 80's, which is a good thing for the computer industry. your initial claim made it sound like this is a big loss to the non-apple computer industry, and i respectfully disagree to that opinion.

i fully understand you prefer OSX as your choice of OS, but that is not the case with the 'masses' you speak of, at least according to my humble observation. as i have mentioned, in our computer clusters at school, OSX rigged macs get deseted till the very end when there are no more windows rigs avaiable. perhaps this is largely due to familiarity to the interface and many of those who avoid macs might end up prefering OSX after they give it a try. but the point is that being able to use OSX is only a good thing for those who have been familiar with mac, not for everyone or 'masses'. i personally fail to see how 'geeky' windows xp/2000 is when most common people can do basic things without any difficulty. if you are against having ways to optimize your OS and software and thus leading up to potential crashes/failures computer illiiterates may encounter, you would be much better served getting a multifunction standalone dvd player. what is the point of having a HTPC over a dvd player anyway? to me it is customizability and ability to run computer programs on TV.

again, as you have mentioned, it is the ends that matter after all - not so much of means. xbox having vastly superior hardware yet losing it to ps2 up until now proves it. if you are a computer gamer at heart, you would still prefer keeping the plethora of PC-only titles. even when they are cross-platform pc versions tend to offer better graphics, more options, room for future patches and bug fixes, etc.

 

[Nospam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReasonablyLucid They only sound like a jet engine when you have the fanspeed set to max all the time. If you set it to low in the bios its very quiet. I can hear my TV (You know that annoying high pitched noise they make?) over my shuttle. Who cares if it puts out more heat in this situation? it would be in a living room which is substantally bigger than an office. The heat it does put out you wouldnt notice. The TV puts out 10x the amount of heat with that giant tube...

I guess you just have a higher threshold for noise than I do. Since I'm used to using laptops without fans, ANY amount of fan noise irritates me. As for the Shuttle, it may not sound loud once you've been using it and have gotten used to the noise level, but when you turn it off, you realize how loud it really was.

Higher heat output is not a good thing, if you're planning on putting this in some type of enclosed entertainment center.

 

[Nospam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikoLayer ...even when they are cross-platform pc versions tend to offer better graphics, more options, room for future patches and bug fixes, etc.

I'm just curious, since I don't play many games... what games have better graphics for the Windows version, and what are the extra options?

 

[D-EJ915]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nospam I'm just curious, since I don't play many games... what games have better graphics for the Windows version, and what are the extra options?

I think the means speed, since Mac OS has generally used OpenGL, which has arguably better visuals than DirectX, or it previously did. DX 9 kicks ass, that's what he's trying to say.

Anyway, I think you guys haven't noticed that the biggest portion of the "SFF" pcs that are sold are to hardcore gamers who want to trek them around. Secondly come geeks who want a small computer in their living room, they won't mind it so much. The percentage of "normal" people who have "SFF" pcs is very slim. Apple is really taking a chance with this product since most people who would want it to be really small aren't technologically inclined and so buying separate things like Tivo would be easier.

 

[bangraman]

Personally, I was hoping for a more inclusive, application-based discussion based on the difference in platforms on this thread, not a hardware nerd fest. I suppose that was hoping for a bit too much.

 

[lini]

Nice little thing - just the right type of computer for my parents (if I hadn't already bought 'em a proper x86 notebook...), I'd think. Well, at least they have quite a few difficulties with Windows... Personally, I'm allured, too - but I'll rather wait for Apple to double-up the graphics memory in some updated version, I guess.

Greetings from Hannover!

Manfred / lini

 

[MikoLayer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nospam I'm just curious, since I don't play many games... what games have better graphics for the Windows version, and what are the extra options?

Halo (PC, XBOX)
Morrowind (PC, XBOX)
Unreal Tournament (PC, XBOX)
Galaxy Angel (PC, XBOX, PS2)

Higher resolution and many graphics options (FSAA, anisotropic filtering and whatnot) are only available on PCs as consoles either do not have enough power to do it or developers dont take advantage of it or do a poor job at it (i.e. DOAX). forget about all sorts of patches/trainers/mods on consoles.

For one thing, not being able to use the keyboard/mouse is detrimental for any FPS/RTS games. not being able to access 'console' in FPS games would be a PITA at times btw. hell, i prefer keyboard even for fighting games and i am not that shabby at melty blood / re.act

just to list a few off the top of my head.

MMORPG is becoming a new emerging area in the PC gaming, and IIRC there isnt as much effort shown in that area for consoles.

 

[MikoLayer]

To quote your original post :

Quote:

Sorry if it's a repost of a similar thinking thread. I think so. I've just ordered one in preference of the Roku Soundbridge M2000. My new LCD TV will have DVI input so that's sorted out. Add a USB sound card and I'm fixed... yes?

.. and that matched with your title for the thread
Did the Mac Mini just take a huge bite out of the Wintel HTPC market?

i fail to see any logical link here. all we can tell by your post is you are happy with your newly purchased mac, congratulations. now, what does that had to do with wintel HTPC? to me it seems like a semi-inflammatory title for a thread, especially when you refuse to give any supporting facts backing up your claim. wintel is stupid btw, you can get the more performance for the same price, or lower price with the same price if you build an amd machine. i dont know too many people around me who are ga-ga about 'wintel HTPCs'; its either hopeless illiterates thinking DELLs are the best there is, or people who know better to go for the right choice with more bang for buck. let this not turn into an intel vs amd flame war, i have more intel machines than amd. it just so happens amd provides better value at the moment and therefore my current pick is an amd chip.

cliff notes : you need a better title, you suck at naming your threads