[ear8dmg]

More the other way around for me. It was the lack of room acoustics, and layout that kept me using speakers as my primary listening option. Headphone use was never a realistic listening experience for me so they were a last resort.

When I got married and moved into a small flat, primary speaker use was no longer an option. I used speedlink medusa 5.1 headphones for a while. They gave an impression of direction, and had a bigger headstage than the stereo headphones I'd tried before them. The sound quality wasn't great though and they were still my secondary option.

Than changed when I bought an Asus Xonar D2 with built in dolby headphone. Shortly after that I had the chance to borrow a set of HD600s, which was the start of my interest in decent headphones. I can honesty say that if if wasn't for Dolby Headphone, i would have stuck with speakers. I'm just not keen on the 'in head' effect that you get with most material over headphones. It's pleasant enough when we get well recorded material that captures soundstage but the majority of close miked music just sounds un-natural over headphones. With dolby headphone I can enjoy a speaker-like soundstage for most music, while still getting the bang-per buck element of headphone listening for things like detail etc.

I don't think Dolby Headphone is the be-all-and-end-all for headphone listening but it was enough for me to shift headphone listening to my primary choice. It might be different if I had several grand's worth of speaker system but it's the best I've got.

Edit: Just to mention - the Xonar does Dolby Headphone an awful lot better than the PowerDVD / Foobar plugins I tried when I was using an Auzentech X-Fi Prelude.

 

[twylight]

room acoustics are cheap compared to headphone stuff - you are dreaming if you think a sub $500 headphone rig is going to be in the same league as a treated room with nice stuff.

My problem is my dedicated room makes my wife pissy when I am in there every day of the week - I dont seem to piss her off as much when im ignoring her at my desk with headphones on.

The only sonic benefit to headphones is imaging is alot easier to attain. Price/performace speakers/room treatments destroy headphones.

I think most people on headfi have:
space issues
neighbor issues
WAF issues
portablility issues

I dont think many are here because headphones > speakers...they just arent.

 

[Sherwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by twylight /img/forum/go_quote.gif room acoustics are cheap compared to headphone stuff - you are dreaming if you think a sub $500 headphone rig is going to be in the same league as a treated room with nice stuff.

Not sure what exactly you mean here... room acoustics are cheap? I could easily spend my entire headphone budget (which is not modest) on bass traps, corner treatments and reflectors before I ever bought a piece of gear. Headphone room treatments are nonexistent, ergo free. Hard to say room treatments are cheaper than free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twylight /img/forum/go_quote.gif The only sonic benefit to headphones is imaging is alot easier to attain. Price/performace speakers/room treatments destroy headphones.

I find imaging to be one of the worst aspects of headphones. Lifelike imaging like what you get from a pair of speakers is nearly impossible to attain. My personal favorite headphones, the AKG K1000s, are essentially two speakers vice-gripped to your head. Headphones have excellent dynamics, transparency, immersion, all of that ... but imaging? We deal with imaging by referring to "headstage", but it's not what life sounds like.

Price/performance, I can build a revealing headphone system from the wall outlet to your ears for under $1000 easily. It won't be perfect, but it will be really excellent. I'd be hard pressed to find just an excellent pair of speakers for $1000, let alone an entire system with room treatments. I'm curious to know more about your listening preferences to see what led you to this conclusion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twylight /img/forum/go_quote.gif I dont think many are here because headphones > speakers...they just arent.

They certainly can be, with some caveats. Everything has caveats. With more than $5,000 and a suitably large and well-laid-out space (as well as no noise restrictions), I agree that speakers are superior. Without at least that, I can't agree with you.

 

[Zombie_X]

I've built acoustic wall dampers before.

I used some really dense foam and a thin sheet of metal. I secured the foam on the metal and hung it on the wall. It did make a big difference though. All six are packed up and in storage will my Jamo's though.

 

[fjrabon]

Nah, originally it was so I could listen to music late after work when I lived with my parents. Now The One Who Must Be Obeyed is studying for the bar exam, and thus I am again on headphones. Whenever possible I listen on speakers though. To me, even with mediocre room acoustics, I think speakers are better. To me its all about the bass. On headphones either the bass sounds unnaturally light or it runs and muddies up everything. I've never heard a headphone with what I hear as natural bass. Even a relatively cheap speaker setup can give me that feeling of nice, full, just right impactful bass, while still keeping everything else clean.

I'm somewhat of a basshead, but on headphone I prefer what most term "polite bass" because the levels of bass quantity that I like just cause things to muddy up with headphones. Its something about feeling the bass over your whole body with speakers v. only hearing it with headphones.

 

[twylight]

Sherwood,

I build (t) the room treatments so they cost very little, plus my wife gets to pick out the fabric...

I agree with $5k for a good music room - spending the same amount on a headphone rig will not yield the same results. I think the point of diminishing returns in a headphone rig is around $1500-2500...closer to 7k on 2 channel and a little less on home theater.

My headphone rig is just under $2k I think and I am very happy with it...but a cheap amp, a pair of salk sound towers, and a cheap source spank it very soundly...at about the same price ($2500ish)

I still contend that people on headfi are here for other reasons than pure sound quality. Available space, neighbors, wife, room mates, lack of dedicated room, cost of dedicated room, portability, secondary system need - all play into it more.

As far as imaging - Headphones put the whole sound stage right off your nose (which isnt always the right spot) but speakers take more work to really make it sound like were Norah Jones is standing on the stage versus a wall of sound in the front of a room.
Perhaps I am using the wrong term - I find I can pop on a pair of headphones and get lost in the music pretty quick - its more work to get there with 2-channel setups.

Also the internet direct deals in 'normal' audio actually mean more quality when you are buying speakers, subs, things like that - in head-fi it just means they charge a hell of a lot more per watt for the same thing.




Its very similar with people trying to half ass a home theater - no really - the sound bar sucks and you just need to run 5 channel at least...

 

[twylight]

Back on topic - dont build dedicated listening rooms in rooms that are squares!

 

[Sherwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by twylight /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sherwood, I build (t) the room treatments so they cost very little, plus my wife gets to pick out the fabric...

Yeah, I figured you might have. DIY treatments are super effective and cheap as all hell. Good on you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twylight /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree with $5k for a good music room - spending the same amount on a headphone rig will not yield the same results. I think the point of diminishing returns in a headphone rig is around $1500-2500...closer to 7k on 2 channel and a little less on home theater.

Our priorities line up perfectly, here (though I might place the high bar slightly higher for 2ch)

Quote:

Originally Posted by twylight /img/forum/go_quote.gif My headphone rig is just under $2k I think and I am very happy with it...but a cheap amp, a pair of salk sound towers, and a cheap source spank it very soundly...at about the same price ($2500ish)

My current headphone rig is dirt cheap... less than $500. It's an analog feed from my big rig DAC fed through a wall into a trends TA 10.1 feeding a Stax transformer. I control it via an iPhone remote, and it brings me immense joy. My speaker rig got all the attention when I moved back to a space that could sustain one. I would contend, however, that under $1000 the better value is found in headphones. We may differ on that point, but I'd be hard pressed to put together a speaker rig to oust my Stax setup for $500.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twylight /img/forum/go_quote.gif I still contend that people on headfi are here for other reasons than pure sound quality. Available space, neighbors, wife, room mates, lack of dedicated room, cost of dedicated room, portability, secondary system need - all play into it more.

My pet theory is that people come here for those reasons, and also because they're young and have little disposable income. Some folks fall in love and stay forever. They are pathological

Quote:

Originally Posted by twylight /img/forum/go_quote.gif As far as imaging - Headphones put the whole sound stage right off your nose (which isnt always the right spot) but speakers take more work to really make it sound like were Norah Jones is standing on the stage versus a wall of sound in the front of a room. Perhaps I am using the wrong term - I find I can pop on a pair of headphones and get lost in the music pretty quick - its more work to get there with 2-channel setups.

I would call that "immersion", and I agree with you. Soundstage to me is precise placement on a realistic-sounding "stage". That's a real bear with headphones, but it's a piece of cake with speakers (provided you know what you're doing). Immersion definitely comes more naturally to headphones.

 

[Canman]

My hi-fi interests started with speakers but living in an apartment building with thin walls doesn't work well for a good speaker setup. I went through a few speaker setups in my previous apartment but they just aren't practical for me in my current location. My current place has 15 ft concrete ceilings, wood floors, and a nasty echo. Someday I will build a nice speaker setup but I don't anticipate selling off the headphones. I enjoy headphones immensely on their own, not just as a secondary for speaker systems.

 

[SonicDawg]

I would say that my headphones are not going to replace my speakers anytime soon. They both have their places.

btw, have you tried any room acoustic software?

 

[robm321]

It didn't drive me to headphones but nearly crazy. I had a square room in the past and had to become an acoustic expert to make it work. Then I moved...

I have CARA, and I know what I'm doing now almost in all situations and room sizes.

 

[twylight]

I would go read all of realtraps.com - dont buy anything - just read it.

I have used a good number of packages - I am hoping active room "EQ"s come down in price for the masses - I would very much like to move away from the audessey/traps approach of doing a room.

 

[leichnitz]

I started with phones because the wife/kids in the TV room would complain about my music. But now, even with no one around, I tend to prefer the phones over my speakers for the "in the head - you are there" sound. Poor room acoustics (vaulted ceilings, etc) don't help. Only problem is that my ears fatigue alot quicker with phones. (SR125s). Haven't been reading here long enough to understand why . . .

 

[JMT391]

Hmm, I never realized there was so much to this. Not that I know much of anything about audio, especially when it is discussed in this many aspects, but one thing I do notice is that there is no substitute for a subwoofer. Nothing else in this world can achieve chest-rumbling status without being overpowering.

On another note, how would you configure a hi-fi home theater? Normal setups go source -> receiver -> speakers/monitor but most of you who seem to have quality speaker setups use a "separates" system (DACs, amps, passive speakers etc...) - How does that all come together?

Sorry if these are stupid/nonsensical questions.

 

[estreeter]

DT, the separate sub you see in home theatre and car audio applications isnt needed in a good dual channel setup : good speakers will have more than enough bass for 99% of the population.

My own take on this is simple : unless you are going to be in the same dwelling for at least 12 months, and have adequate room for a good sized pair of floorstanders and the amp to drive them, headphones win hands down. I have a pair of bookshelves, and they are OK, but I get much better sound from my modest headphone collection. When you consider that some loudspeakers weigh as much as a small refrigerator, mobility isnt their strong suite.