[Magicthyse]

In addition to my last post in here, I have another problem. A couple of days ago was the first time ever that I've tried to upload a track from my minidisc deck with near-peak volume levels. And I'm almost certain I'm getting clipping.

The question is, how do you prove it's clipping and where?

Thanks

 

[elnero]

Hey Magicthyse,

I might not be getting exactly what it is your looking for but I'll give this a try.

Obviously when the track is clipping it's going to sound distorted. To get a visual of this you might want to try Sound Forge if you haven't already. I've found it indispensible for any basic digital audio editing I've had to do. It will give you a visual of the file and if it's clipping it will be squared off at the very top. I can give you screenshots of this if you like.

Sound Forge may also help streamline the rest of your process as well. I'm not sure on all it's capabilities as I don't really use it for that but you could check it out. Link

Hope this helps,

Phil

 

[Magicthyse]

Thanks, I'll look into it.

The problem is that the track has been recorded fairly close to clipping already - the track has some HOOOOOOGE bass so it's really difficult to tell by listening to it and although I haven't examined it in detail, it does look like looking for the 'shoulders' is my only recourse (Squirt this track into the V700 with the cups pointing down and I swear the phones will fly

) if there isn't a software-assisted clip-finder.

 

[Magicthyse]

Sound Forge was just the thing, thanks very much. I downloaded the demo version and the playback bars gave me a clipping indication straight away. Bugger.

My Guillemot ISIS - with which I was able to make very good recordings - started to behave strangely recently, so I switched to using the Audigy EX as my main recording setup. I'm not happy with this - I thought the main advantage of digital recordings was that you didn't have to fiddle around with the levels!

Time for a new semi-pro soundcard perhaps... Would have to put the ER-4P on ice... Double bugger.

 

[Orpheus]

actually, when recording digitally, you have to be much more careful of levels than recording to tape. if you clip on analog tape, it would sound more saturated at low clipping levels, but you probably can't hear too much distortion until you really start clipping badly. on the other hand, even the smallest amount of digital recording is pretty audible. so, your solution is to make sure all your music is compressed properly before going into the recorder (you'll need to buy an outboard compressor).... or if you don't like too much compression, run a limiter before recording... so you'll be able to run a hotter signal.

now... as for detecting digital clipping... if you don't hear it, i wouldn't worry about it. digital clipping for the most part is very audible. ...but just so you know, even if the meters on Sound Forge indicates "clipping" that doesn't necessarily mean it really did clip. it's kinda weird. i don't udnerstand it myself. take for instance a Nine Inch Nails CD.... when I play it in my professional Tascam CD-RW5000, the clip lights light up VERY frequently. or i even noticed softer music... like a lot of dance music also lights up my clip lights. but it sounds fine. .... the point is, let your ears be the final judgement for clipping. you definately should not throw away a good take if for the only reason you saw clip lights turn on.

but, again, if you want to do good digital recordings, you're gonna have to use a compressor or limiter somewhere. Sound Forge has a function to automatically compress when you Normalize. check it out.

dean

 

[Magicthyse]

Thanks for the comments. I'm aware of the clipping issue and perhaps you're right - maybe the Sound Forge indicators light up too early but this is definitely some sort of sound level problem.

The problem seems to be the soundcard or the MD digital output. Either it's a setting that I missed, but 0db should be 0db IMHO if you're outputting in digital to another digital device. The effective volume of the recording however gets noticeably boosted by the time it's got into the PC and if I'm not mistaken, it just sounds worse. I didn't have this problem with the Guillemot.

Apart from games use, I've had nothing but trouble from these damned Creative cards - So I've started looking at the Frontier cards...

 

[Orpheus]

hmm..... that is very strange. so, if i udnerstand correctly, you're saying that when you try recording via a digital connection (SPDIF?) you are getting a louder recording than the original?

you're right, that should not happen. it should be a perfect copy.

...i think your soundcard is doing some kind of background processing. especially all those new game-cards... they all got 3D sound and "sound enhancers"... and whatever else they advertise. not really suited for serious recording.

but unfortunately... i don't think there is much of a way for you to find out which component is at fault. i mean, do you really know the true waveform on your MD? it's possible it's your MD recorder/player that's misbehaving, not the sound card. IN FACT... that's probably what's happening. MD's use a lossy compression algorithm similar to .MP3's.... that's how they squeeze so much music into one little tiny disk. each time you record to a MD, the audio will change a little. that's the problem with MP3's and MDs.

what you really should do is keep a master .WAV on your hard drive. never edit a .MP3 and save it again as .MP3. always convert your MP3 to .WAV... finish editing it... and don't convert back 'till you're ready to make the final .MP3 for burning.

...also, if you plan to make "recordings" with a sound card, i strongly suggest buying a prosumer model. there are several models you can buy around $200-300 that would suit you fine. avoid anything that has any type of surround sound, 3D, or any other fancy feature.

dean

 

[elnero]

Just a quick note on the clipping issue. I believe, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, the reason you sometimes don't hear the clipping when the indicator lights up is that the peak is too quick to be audible. If this level was continuous over an extended period then it would be very audible. This would be the difference between a dynamic peak and recording too loud.

 

[Orpheus]

yeah. you're right. ...but like everything else in this world, it's not that simply. play back some of your CDs in a player with clip lights... you'll see that maybe 5% of your louder CDs will light up once in a while. those lights probably light up when the resulting analog waverform is bigger than the referece 0db. but i think it's possible to master a CD so hot, that it never actually clips, but the CD player thinks it's clipping. i think that's why some very compressed CDs light my lights up. but, i'm not sure.... anyway, the point is, lights aren't always correct.

now, it's my experience that even very small amounts of clipping in a digital recording are pretty audible. so really, if you like a take, then don't throw it away just cause of the clip lights. that's what the engineers recommend...

dean

 

[scrypt]

Recording analog: Technically, the signal's not supposed to go into the red, but sometimes a little bit of red sounds really nice. Casino vs. Japan seems to be basing his musical career on recording digital instruments hot in analog. (Phil Spector made history by discovering the same thing while recording a string section.)

Sometimes when I'm recording vinyl to digital, I send the signal to the analog mixer hot and the mixer's signal cool to my 2408 mk II (soon to be traded in for a mk III).

Recording digital (including MD transfers): As analog-conditioned engineers found out early on, a bit of distortion sounds like hell in the "digital domain" (in 80s parlance). Great if you're making loops for a clicks n' cuts track. Otherwise not.

Don't be afraid to be very conservative in setting your levels before you do an optical transfer. None of that "HOOOOOOGE bass" is going to made hoooooger by clipping. Just the opposite, in fact.

 

[Magicthyse]

Thanks scrypt - however it's all rather old news for the reasonably experienced. The point of a straight optical transfer was that sound levels remain unchanged. -0db remains -0db. It's not doing so in this case - and I have to undergo a timeconsuming digital level adjustment on the Creative sound card side.

So I've decided to try and spend some time getting the Guillemot card working on the other PC once again. I've also begun to severely tire of this whole Minidisc uploading thing, so I probably won't buy a decent replacement soundcard - If there's a better WAV/high-bitrate MP3 recorder on the market early next year, I'll get one of those, junk all the Minidisc gear and dispense with this real-time upload nonsense - if nothing good's out, then I'll settle on a Creative Nomad 3...

 

[scrypt]

Actually, that's not true -- 0db does not remain 0db. Do you have USB/PC Link or something similar? Adjust your computer's player's volume during a (non-Net MD) transfer and you'll hear what I mean.

I can't speak about your soundcard, but the soundcard I use does not impose a set (soundfile's) volume on a live transfer.

I, too, want something like an iPod. What stops me is the absence of a mike input and the fact that I'm already spending enough money on sonic vices.

Truthfully, I think you'd be much happier doing MD transfers from a CDDP with an optical out. For one thing, your computer doesn't get monopolized by a silly MDR. For another, issues of gain structure are really not important.

Rarely do I bother with CPU-to-MD transfers. The only ones I've done were from DVDs that included isolated soundtracks. For that purpose -- and for *non*-computer transfers -- MDRs will do what an iPod will not. For other purposes, an iPod is better. I can't see the point in performing ATRAC compression on a compressed mp3. Too much loss for my taste.

 

[Orpheus]

scrypt, what kind of music do you do? sounds like you have some decent equipment at your studio. i didn't hear any talk of compressors though... are you actually suggesting to record at clipping levels? i wasn't suggesting that that's a good practice... i was just saying not to throw away a good take just cause there's clipping. ...i mean, it could work for some types of music, like Nine Inch Nails stuff.... but for most music, i think that's a bad idea. if you really like hot volumes... just get a really good compressor and compress the hell out of it. or, if you want to really record at maximum volumes... maybe just slap a limiter before going into your MOTU and turn up the volume.

recording very hot is okay for analog... but clipping should be avoided for Magic's purposes cause he's doing digital and trying to make good dubs....

oh, and Magic.... i didn't think of it... but Scrypt brought up a good point.... some sound cards probably do adjust digital levels based on your volume control.... Really, just dump the soundblaster stuff. get yourself a decent prosumer recorder with a breakout box.... MAudio makes some cheap models... in the $200 range.

dean

 

[scrypt]

Quote:

Originally posted by Orpheus scrypt, what kind of music do you do? sounds like you have some decent equipment at your studio. i didn't hear any talk of compressors though... are you actually suggesting to record at clipping levels?

Not at all -- I think you might need to look at what I've written again.
In really glitchy noise recording (and I'm talking Kit Clayton, Taylor Deupree, Geez n' Gosh), people might actually want to use clipped levels, in the same way that someone I know made loops by pouring cleaning fluid on Joan Jett CDs and recording their output on a throwaway player. It's only with *those* aesthetic criteria in mind that I'd recommend digital clipping. (Are you certain you scrutinized the rest my post after pondering my equipment (so to speak)?)

About gear: Yes, I do have nice stuff. (Believe me, I got the digital clipping lecture when I bought an Alesis ADAT twelve years ago.) I was about to spend far too much on a Great River mike pre before my partner picked up a beautiful Trident board and suggested I move some of my stuff out to his loft in Brooklyn. I'm thinking about that at the moment; another producer friend has just picked up the entire ProTools 24/96 package. He's a veteran -- he's produced rock albums everyone on his board would know about -- but I don't like working with him. I'm currently on the fence about more high-end gear.

For compression, I have an RNC, of course, and a Distressor for added frequency-twisting compressor fun. Plus it's fun to use Reaktor software to destroy signal even more.

What do I compose/produce? I used to play on a lot of rock albums, but the truth is, I'm a keyboardist with a classical background and I've always hated rock, which is why I stopped being a full-time studio musician. Even the Boredoms have too much guitar for me.

What I write at home is a kind of chamber music for electronics, acoustic strings and, occasionally, choir or contra-tenor. I've composed/produced a lot of techno and IDM as well. I've played, sung and arrangedd nearly every kind of music professionally. On an album with a Manchester band called Speedway, I got to arrange for strings as well as play keyboards. I was happy about that.

Quote:

recording very hot is okay for analog... but clipping should be avoided for Magic's purposes cause he's doing digital and trying to make good dubs....

Yes, he knows that. I was just explaining to him the circumstances in which clipping *would* be an OK idea because -- I don't know how I arrived at this conclusion, but the V700s might have had something to do with it -- I get the impression he spins.

And BTW, Orpheus -- I've been meaning to respond to your composition thread. I just didn't want to pollute the board with more more more more me.

 

[Orpheus]

yeah... probably didn't read your posts close enough. you definately have nice stuff. out of my league anyway.... i just have the standard mackie 32x8 going into a MOTU 896.... nothing like your trident. heh he. anyway....

what were you gonna say in the composition thread? i'm interested in meeting more musicians. please post a reply.

and Magic.... seriously.... get rid of the Soundblasters if you want to do anything more than gaming. they suck with your headphones anyway.... way too much noise.

dean