[Duncan]

I'm NOT a crossfeeder, never have - and probably never will...

You can take the acoustics out of the room, but you can never take the room out of the acoustics in my opinion

 

[kerelybonto]

Well okay then. But actually I'd think crossfeed would have more of a beneficial effect on imaging and depth than anything else. I mean, you have to be able to hear a sound with both ears to be able to get a sense of multi-dimensionality. Your ears work the same way as with your eyes -- close one eye and visual depth perception is considerably skewed, and the same is true of auditory depth perception.

Unfortunately I don't think any crossfeed scientifically reproduces the effect well enough to make it seem like you're actually listening to speakers (or the original sounds, for that matter) -- but I could be wrong ... I've never heard crossfeed and know relatively little about it.

But someone who's a crossfeeder, let us know.

kerelybonto

 

[Xander]

Quote:

Originally posted by kerelybonto Haha, no!, you can't be bored by all the amazing goings-on at Head-Fi!

You havent been here long, have you?

 

[kerelybonto]

Oh, but the point is, without crossfeed, we have to rely on the channel programming the sound engineer decided to use. And we all know that stereo is not stereo is not stereo. There's all sorts of effects out there, ranging from total separation to dual mono. Most of them work all right with speakers, but again, I think that might have to do with the natural crossfeed of an open-air loudspeaker listening environment. ...

kerelybonto

 

[kerelybonto]

Haha, Xander, I've been here long enough that there have been multiple consecutive days where I've found nothing to post about. I want to post, I really do, but ...

kerelybonto

 

[grancasa]

One thing that always has been weird for me is the panning of drums on recordings. Being a drummer I am so used to hearing the ride on my right side, and the hat and snare on my left, usually with the bass player on my left and the rest out in front. When listening to a recorded jazz track I still sometimes have to mentally re-adjust to the fact that the ride is on the left and the hat and snare on the right.


Another percussion-related question. In classical recordings, does anyone else feel that sometimes the timpani are panned WAY to far left and right, much farther than their natural position in an orchestra? Sometimes the 4 sound to me as if they are spread a good 30 feet across. Anyone?

 

[Nezer]

Quote:

Originally posted by grancasa One thing that always has been weird for me is the panning of drums on recordings. Being a drummer I am so used to hearing the ride on my right side, and the hat and snare on my left, usually with the bass player on my left and the rest out in front. When listening to a recorded jazz track I still sometimes have to mentally re-adjust to the fact that the ride is on the left and the hat and snare on the right.

That drives me nuts too... As a guitarist I'm used to the kit being behind me so the sounds are left/right relative the same as you hear... But most recording engineers choose to pan from the audience perspective. It doesn't really matter which they choose technically as long as they don't keep switching between tracks on a CD. But it does bother me.

I used to play timpani in a symphonic orchestra so as far as I'm concerned it should be front and center and louder than eveything else.

 

[Matt]

...only way, from what I understand from my studio experience, to get a "realistically reproduced soundstage" is to mic the players and then set the mixing controls relative to the mic placement, relative from the point of the single listener.

So, if you mic'ed them like this:

\ | /

(where the lines indicate direction)

you'd set the pans for those mics relative to the way they point, amongst other things. This is why, from what I hear, classical music has much more "actual" information than does, say, a pop record, where you'll get weird, way-too-upfront positioning of lead vocals, auto-panning of percussion or vocals, weird placement of closely mic'ed (or directly mic'ed) instruments (like an electric bass guitar being directly mic'ed) mixed into a "distant" or low-volumed (so that you get no real "wetness" or reverberation, just the straight sound into your ear...essentially giving you no additional placement info to "locate" that instrument with, thus making it sound like it's coming from the earcup).

If, on the other hand, a rock band just set up some nice stacks and mic'ed them and mixed the mic positionings properly relative to one another from a single point of view, you'd get the room clues you'd need to form an "image."

There are records that I have of techno acts who use "lush strings" or "wet cymbals" and other such effects, and while they do extend out away from me as the sound decays, it feels very artificial. So that would be depth, but not really depth that constituted a real, organic "sound stage." I find I'm hard pressed to get pop music with a non-phony sounding sense of soundstaging.

- Sir Mister Matt

 

[markl]

Lack of depth is an inherent trade-off with phones. If depth is your hot-button, stick to speakers. The only headphone I've heard that has anything even somewhat resembling depth is (no need for drumroll

) the R10. Which Vert has just sold. Hmmmmm......

Yes kiddies, don't be fooled about the true nature of this thread. I've seen it all before. A dozen times now. This whole "depth" discussion is a red herring and just his way of teasing us about his latest gear. He wants us to guess...

I'll start.

I wonder if he has something with Dolby Headphone? That would certainly purport to change the spatial relations of two-channel music, simulating a surround sound experience through his cans.

Am I on the right track....

markl

 

[Vertigo-1]

I think we're talking about different usages of the idea of depth here. In the sense of recreating that far away sensation of having the stage laid out before you without that 3 blobs in the head effect, yes forget headphones. But I'm talking about the relationship (if any) between depth and hearing clearly seperated instruments with a real time space around them. This isn't necessarily something that will take place right in front of your nose or even far away from your nose all the time.

Just trying to clear up definitions here. Is that considered a part of depth, or does depth relate only to the "how far is something floating around in front of you" feeling?

 

[BenG]

Depth really depends on the nature of the recording ie. number of mics and their position. If you're talking acoustic, a good recording that uses minimal micing techniques(somewhat like binuaral), that pics up the ambience of a venue well, can create a good sense of depth, even in headphones imo. These recordings are usually found in the classical genre, though certain live jazz recordings, in particular, can do this quite well.

The Etymotics are the best headphones I own at producing 3D imaging, they make my Senns and Sonys sound flat in comparison. Still, you can't beat capable speakers for creating more convincing imaging and soundstage depth, duh.

 

[Calanctus]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl I wonder if he has something with Dolby Headphone? That would certainly purport to change the spatial relations of two-channel music, simulating a surround sound experience through his cans.

To my ears, Dolby Headphone does not introduce a dramatic surround effect--it's there but it's nothing like surround speakers. What it does is actually group the sound of the instruments in something like a stage, rather than having some of them way off directly to your left and others directly to your right as sometimes happens with stereo recordings (not expressing this well, I know).

 

[a1leyez0nm3]

Quote:

Originally posted by Audio&Me How the hell can you get depth from earphones?

exactly my thoughts... i think that its all in your head, trying to figure out where things belong and placing them there...

 

[Vertigo-1]

I'm not using earphones. I'm using full sized open air headphones. Who said I was using earphones?

 

[BenG]

Quote:

Originally posted by a1leyez0nm3 exactly my thoughts... i think that its all in your head...

No ****. It's all psycho-acoustics. Depth is just part of the illusion of sound reproduction.